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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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With as much assistance a race needs and works w community (volunteers/police/ems), you actually think a race and organization of that magnitude wouldn’t let the police in on “oh yeah it’s 2 days this year Thur Sat”.

I ain’t buying that part of the story from the police side.

This race basically shuts down the island and you think the police didn’t know it was 2 day event.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Triathlete article talking about how the 2 day ‘22 event planned out….starting post StG with an 4-5 month lead time.

The first step was going to the county, the mayor, and the local agencies to ask for their support,” Frey says. “They knew we had this backlog of athletes. But they also knew the economic impact of this race, so we got the support from them right away.”

https://www.triathlete.com/...nd-bigger-than-ever/

(Posting from phone so sorry if link isn’t active)

This sounds like revisionist history so that the 2 day race is all the fault of IM. It completely sounds like the island balked on the future of a 2 day race, whether there was already a contract/handshake deal/ verbal deal / or TBD. Which is understandable if rumors are correct I think the mayor sat in traffic on Thur for over 2 hours. Like I can totally see why they wanted to bail on the idea. The fault I place on IM is awarding KQ slots to athletes seemingly knowing that wasn’t a done deal for 23. Now that’s not a ton of athletes affected but it’s still bad biz practice.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Dec 4, 22 7:00
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, that thought crossed my mind as well…seems a bit crazy.

That said, I think it does tell you something about the relationship between IM and the Kona police. In my experience, relationships tend to be two-way streets.

I’ve tended to reflexively defend IM as well, but I thought it worth noting because it does make me wonder (when I really haven’t before), which is the main point I’m making.

While I don’t know the police in question, I do have some long, personal relationships with some sr. volunteer folks and they expressed surprise and confusion and I can not think of any reason they would be making things up.

Respectful question: do you think IM has no or very limited blame here and things happened to them that they had no control/influence of? That was my position in October. I’m questioning my position now….maybe it’s just my issue though! (I’m still on some pretty heavy meds post knee!)

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Why does there have to blame anywhere?

Why can’t we just say the island can’t sustain a 2 day event that supports IM’s needs. End of story

Whether the police had enough notice or not, they were stretched thin, the volunteer situation was a mess, the “hatred” whether exaggerated or not is real. I just think it’s hard to believe that PTB in this were “surprised” that ‘22 Kona was a 2 day event. My bullshit meter ain’t buying that.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Dec 4, 22 8:46
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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rrheisler wrote:
I’m sorry, but we’ve covered the idea of non-refundable travel before. Don’t do it.
I have to agree with this. They moved the date of Worlds in Abu Dhabi after I'd booked my original hotel and flight... stuff happens that you can't control. Don't book anything non-refundable if you can avoid it at all. Also, given what I've heard of scarcity there, I would imagine anyone who's booked accommodation in Kona should be able to transfer it to another athlete.
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry for the choice of words. Stuff happened. What caused it?

If I hear you right, you are saying there was no way Kona would ever support two days. It is what it is.

Fine. How do you know that?

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Why does there have to blame anywhere?

Why can’t we just say the island can’t sustain a 2 day event that supports IM’s needs. End of story

Whether the police had enough notice or not, they were stretched thin, the volunteer situation was a mess, the “hatred” whether exaggerated or not is real. I just think it’s hard to believe that PTB in this were “surprised” that ‘22 Kona was a 2 day event. My bullshit meter ain’t buying that.

this may be the way to sanity.

we could make a list as long as my arm of IM's sins, but maybe this latest development is just ... one of those things that happens. it's outgrown the small island in the middle of the ocean. things have changed.

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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Bryancd wrote:
CPT Chaos wrote:


I am very excited by this change, as I raced Kona 3x and found it to be my absolute least favourite race (even compared to IMTX 2018).


It's funny I know folks who feel exactly like you do and I'm the opposite. I've done it 3 times and I only do an IM to get a spot to race in Kona. Also all my friends say the same about IMTX as you and yet I still signed up for it, LOL.

I'm with you, but have only done it twice. Deferred my spot this year in FL because fitness wasn't there to KQ and now I'm not terribly excited to race there. If I qualify I likely won't go to WC anywhere else. I'd far prefer doing a Challenge race elsewhere in the world, where I don't get the feeling I'm being used for my cash and treated like an annuity. I've already signed up for a Euro Challenge race for next year and I KNOW it will be far less expensive than the inflated costs IM brings to a race.

I also hear of some stating how much fair to have the same number of women go. Why? They are a far smaller number in the sport and obviously the overall field will be far less in ability. Perhaps they've realized the success of USAT/ITU WC races where the quality of the TeamUSA athletes is a joke. For sure, DNF and not making cutoffs will soar in the larger women's field at Kona; is that a real plus for the sport?????

Kiwami Racing Team
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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IM has simply put grown the 2500 1 day Kona. If it wants to go back to that to have all parties together but it just seems logical that 2 days is just too much of a burden on the island. (Or at least 2 days in a very short time period)

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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What do they say about history? It’s written by the winners.

The island and locals “won” and kicked out big bad IM brand from their 2 day event. I don’t believe for a second that IM was lacking in communication or X PTB was suddenly “surprised” that it was 2 days instead of the normal 1 day. I even would wager there was an “agreement” prior to this event and then post event, after reviewing it, funny how the locals were loudest with “wait a minute we don’t have ‘23 squared away yet”.

And I don’t think it has failed because IM’s lack of communication or triathletes are suddenly tri snobs.

I think the island simply wants no part of 2 days after actually going through with it and IM has to kinda save the relationship so in fact they are the ones bending the knee. I actually thought IM would tell Kona to pound sound instead of the other way, event wagered $1k but no one would take me up on it.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Without the race one can even actually travel to Kailua Kona. I'm sure glad I don't have rental property there as rates will plummet without the race. Long term, did the locals actually win?

Kiwami Racing Team
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough!

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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You call that an interview?
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [playguy] [ In reply to ]
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playguy wrote:
Without the race one can even actually travel to Kailua Kona. I'm sure glad I don't have rental property there as rates will plummet without the race. Long term, did the locals actually win?


I’d guess a lot of people who own the condos aren’t locals.
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [guillermoD] [ In reply to ]
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guillermoD wrote:


IMO if Ironman wants to safe Kona it should go back like it was 15 years ago to 2000 Athletes, (proportionate slots for men and women) and 1 day event. Even if the profits are half.


Agreed but,


They don't need to go back 15 years just go back to what it was before this year
Meaning the (pre covid) 2019 race which had 2368 athletes
Last edited by: flying: Dec 4, 22 17:20
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [playguy] [ In reply to ]
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playguy wrote:
Without the race one can even actually travel to Kailua Kona. I'm sure glad I don't have rental property there as rates will plummet without the race. Long term, did the locals actually win?


It's Hawaii
A limited quantity
Rentals rates plummet without a 1 or 2 days race???
Rents & pretty much everything else is expensive 365 days a year in Hawaii
Last edited by: flying: Dec 4, 22 17:40
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [flying] [ In reply to ]
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flying wrote:
playguy wrote:
Without the race one can even actually travel to Kailua Kona. I'm sure glad I don't have rental property there as rates will plummet without the race. Long term, did the locals actually win?


It's Hawaii
A limited quantity
Rentals rates plummet without a 1 or 2 days race???
Rents & pretty much everything else is expensive 365 days a year in Hawaii


Understood; but the cash cow may be gone, so rates back to normal. Also, you think just 1 or 2 day rentals? How many travel and train there for longer periods. Similar to IMWI here in Madison, there are many people who rent and travel to train on site. Kill the race, those are gone. Frankly, it's a tiny community with little other than coffee plantations up the hill. Better waves and tourist spots on other locales and other islands. The golden calf of Ironman brings quite a bump in the economy; not just on that day.

Kiwami Racing Team
Last edited by: playguy: Dec 4, 22 18:58
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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rrheisler wrote:
I’d like to know what questions you wanted asked.

The 30 mins consisted of:
2 mins of off the record catching up on family stuff (first time we’ve talked in 18+ months)
25 mins which produced the front page interview (transcribed while on the call)
3 mins of confidential talk.

Here are some questions you could have asked:

Why were you selling hundreds of slots to races less than two weeks before you announced there would not be a men’s race in 2023? You must have known by then there was a very good chance it wasn’t happening.

You told everyone there would be a two day Kona in 2023. Given the exorbitant costs for attendees in 2022, wouldn’t it be prudent for athletes to make plans early? Couldn’t you have forewarned them that you did not have a binding contract?

You claimed in the Tri 24/7 interview that you had a great plan for dealing with inconveniences of Kona locals in 2022. In hindsight, did your team do a poor job managing traffic and other logistical issues?

Over a four year period, pro and AG men will have had one opportunity to race in Kona. Have you and your team failed in any of your basic job requirements, as evidenced by this?

Please describe how your new owners prioritize maximizing profits relative to serving as stewards of this sport.

How should your owners assess your job performance?

Do you believe your actions expose you to a class action lawsuit?
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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I think what gets me is not that they likely can lawyer it up to win against any lawsuits. It's the fact that they put their own customers in that situation to begin with. Like if I was Messick, I would be beyond embarrassed to the point of making sure they took care of those customers, even if they dont *have too*.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [playguy] [ In reply to ]
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playguy wrote:
flying wrote:
playguy wrote:
Without the race one can even actually travel to Kailua Kona. I'm sure glad I don't have rental property there as rates will plummet without the race. Long term, did the locals actually win?


It's Hawaii
A limited quantity
Rentals rates plummet without a 1 or 2 days race???
Rents & pretty much everything else is expensive 365 days a year in Hawaii


Understood; but the cash cow may be gone, so rates back to normal. Also, you think just 1 or 2 day rentals? How many travel and train there for longer periods. Similar to IMWI here in Madison, there are many people who rent and travel to train on site. Kill the race, those are gone. Frankly, it's a tiny community with little other than coffee plantations up the hill. Better waves and tourist spots on other locales and other islands. The golden calf of Ironman brings quite a bump in the economy; not just on that day.


I understand why someone would think that but truth is it is a drop in a big bucket

For instance this is first year they had 5k competitors but lets use that more than double average as a base
5000 athletes & say they each & everyone has 5 additional support with them That is 5k+25,000 = 30,000 visitors
Yes some come early to acclimate...support/viewers don't

The Big Island gets 100,000 to 175,000 a month not even counting the summer hump

Trust me I agree Kona is nothing special & I always wondered why tourists love it but they do.
It is also why some of the most expensive resorts chose that coast with its abundance of sunshine. Unlike Hilo where you rust hahah
But for sheer beauty the oldest island of Kaui is much more beautiful IMHO

I hope Ironman continues as it always did in Hawaii. I remember the Oahu days & being in my VW bug behind riders thinking WTH?? :)

Move it & someone will quickly fill that void under a new name & folks will come it is the Original Ironman & that does resonate with many
Last edited by: flying: Dec 4, 22 23:22
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [flying] [ In reply to ]
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flying wrote:

Move it & someone will quickly fill that void under a new name & folks will come it is the Original Ironman & that does resonate with many
.
If it isn't an M-Dot event it will fail. The Ironman Cult is strong.
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [EyeRunMD] [ In reply to ]
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EyeRunMD wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Messick should have just told Kona to suck it up and accept a two day event or he would yank the race and walk to where they will do it.

The reason why St. George was not desirable was Kona was on deck later. With Kona on deck every two years the other year elsewhere event becomes less desirable. If you moved it all to Nice or St. George or Frankfurt or wherever the value of the location would grow and everyone will forget Kona in a few years

The sport is bigger than Kona


I think the town would have told him to go pound sand.


I’m not sure they would. I recall reading a newspaper article when I did IMTX saying that event was one of the larger money makers for that community each year. That amazed me to see the economic impact ironman had on a community. But, Houston (and surrounding communities) are not a known tourist destination, whereas Hawaii is, so they effect may be quite different. Still, IM coming to Kona every October has to be a massive economic gain for the Kona area (for many)

I think Ironman (WTC) has a window right now where they could have just walked from Kona entirely. This is because Ironman is stronger than PTO or Challenge. In ONE year, PTO nor Challenge would be able to cut a deal with Kona to put on a "world championship" there, with a qualifying series. It would just be a crappy backfill race like Challenge Penticton after Penticton effectively booted Ironman out.

Then by next year, Kona would come back begging to Ironman. I am sure St. George or Nice could easily be the two day event in 2023...by 2024, Kona would come back begging for the 2 day event. Guaranteed. Or we find out that we no Kona on deck, a 2 day worlds elsewhere takes off.

We have precedent. Most of you are forgetting that Ironman was on Oahu, not Kona. Oahu had the "history". Now everyone has forgotten about Oahu. It barely took a few years before we moved onto Kona. Move it elsewhere and we will forget about Kona. It is not the venue, it is the people that make the event.

Remember, Walter O'Malley moved the Brooklyn Dodgers out of NY to LA. If that can be done, this is easy. This sport is way beyond a town on an island that really does not want us.

I love it in Kona, but time has moved on. It is like when a couple grow apart because the aims of each have diverged. Sometimes it is better to cut ties.
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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Waingro wrote:
rrheisler wrote:
I’d like to know what questions you wanted asked.

The 30 mins consisted of:
2 mins of off the record catching up on family stuff (first time we’ve talked in 18+ months)
25 mins which produced the front page interview (transcribed while on the call)
3 mins of confidential talk.


Here are some questions you could have asked:

Why were you selling hundreds of slots to races less than two weeks before you announced there would not be a men’s race in 2023? You must have known by then there was a very good chance it wasn’t happening.

You told everyone there would be a two day Kona in 2023. Given the exorbitant costs for attendees in 2022, wouldn’t it be prudent for athletes to make plans early? Couldn’t you have forewarned them that you did not have a binding contract?

You claimed in the Tri 24/7 interview that you had a great plan for dealing with inconveniences of Kona locals in 2022. In hindsight, did your team do a poor job managing traffic and other logistical issues?

Over a four year period, pro and AG men will have had one opportunity to race in Kona. Have you and your team failed in any of your basic job requirements, as evidenced by this?

Please describe how your new owners prioritize maximizing profits relative to serving as stewards of this sport.

How should your owners assess your job performance?

Do you believe your actions expose you to a class action lawsuit?


Do you really think Messick would answer a question asking any CEO if his actions expose his company to a class action lawsuit? Of course Ryan can't ask that but everyone is free to drum people up to do that.

As for only one opp for men in 4 years, that is convenient question anking. The right question is 1 opp for men in two years since we can't count the other two. The answer Messick can give this, "over time we offered something like 80,000 men the chance to race in Kona and only 20,000 women....this is our way of making it right...we have to start somewhere and the time is now. The guys can be patient, we can't make it all happen for everyone and for the last 40 years we prioritized men".
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Dec 5, 22 3:22
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Re: Messick Interview on 2 Venue IMWC [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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Oxygen Addict podcast interview which reiterates info already shared.
Roth: "We like ONE day (a Saturday)." "Do you want me to say that again/"
"We will [reveal men's venue] in Early January."


Last edited by: Ajax Bay: Dec 8, 22 4:16
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