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Re: World Championship slots. De valuing getting to Kona? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]
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That's interesting, some people clearly seem to believe "competitiveness" is represented by the average or median result for the qualification race and selectivity of the process.
I think competitiveness is how the WC race result is representative of my rank in the world. Is everyone who's at my level of better attending?

So maybe we are going to agree to disagree.
For me, the more people get to the WC the better, because I get better representation and better competitiveness.

I genuinely don't like that the WC is a victory lap for many. I like to go there and race and see how I stand. And I wonder if "victory lap" isn't - for some - an excuse for poor race strategy/performance/execution. Clearly, too many are starting out way too hard from what I saw.

I qualified as 9th (!) at a race in 2021 that had extra slots but was 10% of my AG in Kona 2022. 10% means it shouldn't be as hard as it is for me to qualify.
Legacy slots, Covid slots, people going for a victory lap only explain the difference up to so much. I tried estimating my result for a previous year and I'm confident it would have still been within top 20%.

How is a race competitive if people in the top 20% have a hard time qualifying? And I'm talking about men. I strongly believe the situation can only be worse for women from this point of view. Less slots means more of a roulette and more strong athletes are left out.
Last edited by: marcoviappiani: Dec 9, 22 2:52
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Re: World Championship slots. De valuing getting to Kona? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]
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Changpao wrote:
rrheisler wrote:
These posts hit on something that bubbles underneath the surface of this discussion, particularly with underrepresented groups breaking barriers in any context.

My wife has directly experienced this as an attorney at big law firms with some female partners who broke into the field and into leadership positions within it. And it comes down to this -- those who have experienced adversity and overcome it will often take one of two options when it comes to newer people from similar circumstance:

1.) "My experience was XXX. Because I experienced it, you should have to go through it, too."
2.) "My experience was XXX. Because I experienced it, I want to make your experience better."

We've kinda been at that point with triathlon for a while -- the death of the mass swim start, Women For Tri, etc. -- and now it's coming to World Championship qualification. Just because you achieved something while conditions were more difficult does not somehow make your achievement less worthy. It just means there's now more opportunity for others to experience it.

Make other people's experiences better. Stop eating our own.

I agree that we should all do what we can to make people's experiences better. A female poster's comment (perhaps in another thread) about how the bro-culture in triathlons can be unwelcoming for women is very helpful in that respect.

I am also supportive of IM's switch to a two-day format and its overall commitment to expanding women's participation in triathlons (even if it is a bit self-serving for IM). I hope it is just one of many measures IM and other triathlon organizations take to facilitate greater participation across the board; triathlon would be better if it were less white, male, and rich. And while I expect there will be hiccups along the way, in the long run giving women their own day for the WC will help grow the sport. And, even if it doesn't, it's just the right thing to do.

That being said, I am sympathetic to the position of people who worry that rapidly expanding the field size detracts from their own experience of qualifying for and completing in a WC. Maybe I'm a crappy person, but I take some satisfaction from doing things other people can't. I like knowing that I can run a marathon after biking 112 miles when most of my colleagues can't run a 5k. I like standing on the starting line of an IM knowing that I will finish ahead of just about everyone around me. I liked qualifying for Kona more than the 70.3 WC because I know it was harder. Maybe besting others is a shitty, shallow way to derive a sense of self-worth; maybe it's just the honest reality of having a competitive personality.

My point is that I do think it is fair to express a concern that the recent changes (and possible future field expansions) will make qualifying too easy. I actually don't think it will. I expect once the dust settles you will still have plenty of competition to qualify; both races will be full of highly accomplished athletes. But I can't predict the future any more than anyone else can.

If I had my way, qualifying for a WC, whether as a man or woman, would require finishing on or very close to the podium. In the short run, I am certainly willing to sacrifice competitiveness for the goal of increasing participation, but in the long-run I would not want to see roll downs going well beyond the top ten on a regular basis. Whether that is an appropriate standard is certainly open for debate; reasonable people can disagree as to how hard qualifying should be.


For the women’s side those days seem to be done, all women at NZ who went to roll down got a slot. It will be interesting to see where the mens race is, perhaps it could hold 5000
Starters so might see a lot of mens slots available also.

At this point the WC should be pro only and just make Kona normal IM sign up like any other race. The WC should be left to the ITU Long Course for amateurs moving forward.
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Re: World Championship slots. De valuing getting to Kona? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
I am certainly willing to sacrifice competitiveness for the goal of increasing participation//

But this is the exact point myself and a couple others are trying to make, you "increase" competitiveness, not sacrifice it. No need to go over the old vs new process again, but cliff notes is that many, many more top women will now get to race. And yes when you add 1800 more women, there is also increased participation too. Both things can be true, just wish this myth of a less competitive race would go away now that it is exposed for what it really is...

"Competitiveness" is a myth when you have a roll down system.

A person has to accept "pay for" a KQ slot. That in no way insures competitiveness. So saying the old system or the new one (I'm in favor of the new system BTW) will increase or decrease competitiveness is just not true. It's not like there is a playoff system or anything else that resembles a system where the cream rises to the top. When you are talking about armatures (and now some pro) that have to pay their own way economics will always be a consideration. So when you have a race where the KQ rolls down to #27, which has happened in the old system, diluting "competitiveness" has always been the case. Now do the math for a multiple qualifying races around the world and the numbers get worse/better for "competitiveness" depending on how YOU look at it. You can't definitively say one way or the other.

It's a crap shoot either way.
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Re: World Championship slots. De valuing getting to Kona? [Rideon77] [ In reply to ]
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Rideon77 wrote:
monty wrote:
I am certainly willing to sacrifice competitiveness for the goal of increasing participation//

But this is the exact point myself and a couple others are trying to make, you "increase" competitiveness, not sacrifice it. No need to go over the old vs new process again, but cliff notes is that many, many more top women will now get to race. And yes when you add 1800 more women, there is also increased participation too. Both things can be true, just wish this myth of a less competitive race would go away now that it is exposed for what it really is...

"Competitiveness" is a myth when you have a roll down system.

A person has to accept "pay for" a KQ slot. That in no way insures competitiveness. So saying the old system or the new one (I'm in favor of the new system BTW) will increase or decrease competitiveness is just not true. It's not like there is a playoff system or anything else that resembles a system where the cream rises to the top. When you are talking about armatures (and now some pro) that have to pay their own way economics will always be a consideration. So when you have a race where the KQ rolls down to #27, which has happened in the old system, diluting "competitiveness" has always been the case. Now do the math for a multiple qualifying races around the world and the numbers get worse/better for "competitiveness" depending on how YOU look at it. You can't definitively say one way or the other.

It's a crap shoot either way.

I believe you exaggerate the impact of the roll down system. The fact that some spots roll down well outside the top ten does not mean that the system as a whole does not funnel the fastest athletes to the WC. My experience is that most spots get taken by people who earned when without the benefit of the roll down and most roll down spots are snatched up quickly.

And here is my personal experience. I did four IM branded races this year. I trained for all four and they all went well, which is to say my performance didn’t vary that much. In my age group (45-49), I finished 2nd, 5th, 7th, and 163rd. Which one do you think was a WC?
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Re: World Championship slots. De valuing getting to Kona? [Rideon77] [ In reply to ]
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A person has to accept "pay for" a KQ slot. That in no way insures competitiveness. So saying the old system or the new one (I'm in favor of the new system BTW) will increase or decrease competitiveness is just not true.//

Now you have gone off to an entirely different topic, the affordable factor of the race. I agree the more it costs, the more it will roll down, but that is not what I'm talking about here. At least now all of the top women and most of the men, will at least have the opportunity to go if they choose. The old system had most top women who did not win, in the category of not even having that choice. You can take about the prohibitive cost, but that is not what this topic is about, it is just the availability of the actual slots to the top folks..


I'm afraid it is a supply and demand function which has pushed the prices so high, not sure where the breaking point is, but probably not here. They will fill the races just on 40 years of momentum, but that does not last forever. Perhaps they will figure out a way to make sure people come away feeling they got their monies worth, who knows?
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