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Re: Ability required to run a sub 3 marathon [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]
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here is some statistics
swiss marathon runners are on average are 50 min faster than americans for instance
so maybe the question has to be how much more gifted has an american to be , to overcome the american lifestyle disadvantage vs a swiss runner ...



https://runrepeat.com/how-do-you-masure-up-the-runners-percentile-calculator
https://runrepeat.com/research-marathon-performance-across-nations
https://runrepeat.com/state-of-running
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6603944/
https://medium.com/running-with-data/a-data-analysis-of-the-dublin-marathon-48138724973e


Last edited by: pk: Nov 11, 22 11:19
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Re: Ability required to run a sub 3 marathon [pk] [ In reply to ]
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It's been a while since I ran a marathon. All 8 of mine were sub 3 hours with 2:45:21 my best. In 1993 I ran 2:47:10 in a snow storm in Chicago and I consider that a better run than my fastest. I was 68th that year in Chicago. Running is mostly behind me since I have back issues. No pun intended. I didn't consider myself a very talented runner. I could, did and continue to push myself hard. When it comes to the battle of the mind and body, you can't let your body cheat your mind out of what it wants to do.
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Re: Ability required to run a sub 3 marathon [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]
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ahhchon wrote:

it would take some analysis, but i think for men, the sub 2:15 range would be a good point to start talking regarding genetically "gifted", meaning an outlier. just take all marathon finishers under 3-3:10 hours, find the outliers in that range, and by outliers, i'm taking 1.5 sd from the mean of that range. the reason i would chose 3:10 hours is because i believe that a majority of people can run 3:10 with dedication. it makes no sense to include 4-5 hour runners in our data as they are 1) generally haven't put in the time, or effort it requires to run 3:10, or are older, which adds another factor to the genetic component, because i would assume we're talking about prime aged men atm, vs 50-60 year olds.

this has been an interesting topic.. i might scrub some marathon results and run some analysis...

lets say i decide to do this.

what races should i chose? my guess would be that, if i'm looking to find the "genetic lottery limits", and outliers, i should be looking at big marathons, where the faster runners/more elites are going to show up, not to mention, larger samples, compared to a small local marathon where the winning time is 2:55. might also make sense to take data from the past 5 years of the same race, just to average out for random weather events, too. any other thoughts?

2:15 is fast enough that you getting populations that are good enough to try. For example if you look at all the DI runners who run 5k/10k but who don't break 14/29. Those DI runners aren't maxing out their ability by any extend but you are going to have a population that is trying and getting to the 95%+ type numbers rather than the average marathoner who just isn't trying. I wouldn't be shocked if 2:15 was well above a top 5% result. I know plenty of solid club runners (guys who ran DI in college and were 14:15-14:40 type guys. One was an XC all american) type runners who were still willing to to run 80+mpw and most of them struggle to get in the low 2:20s with only a couple making the OT. Granted most were in the old shoes so maybe that stud with his 2:16 would have been a 2:12 guys these days and all those 2:22 guys would have run 2:18. I am sure if they didn't have to work they could have squeaked out a few more mins but these guys were probably getting close. Maybe they had another 5 mins in them with mythetical perfect training but I sort of doubt it.

I don't think you are going to get much out of analyzing marathon results as you are missing the key input about how much the person running the race cares. I think you would get better info if you took Strava training data and then used it to look at results. You could plot up hours of training over the previous year and marathon results and you might find that people running 3:00 had a spread of 5-10 hours/week of training while those running 3:30 ran 3-6 hours.... You could then track people over time and see what happens to the subset of 3:30 runners who up their training time by 2 hours for their next marathon.

Just looking at marathon data, maybe trying to track improvement over time might be interesting (how many people run 4:00, 3:30 and then 2:50) and how many keep running the same time. But again you have to idea if the people who don't improve are trying to improve...
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Re: Ability required to run a sub 3 marathon [Sub52] [ In reply to ]
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see DM
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Re: Ability required to run a sub 3 marathon [Pmswanepoel] [ In reply to ]
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Pmswanepoel wrote:
Does one have to be genetically gifted to run a sub 3 marathon. Assuming excellent training etc, how achievable is it?

Strong correlation with shorter distances. If you canā€™t run 10k under 38 mins there is no way you can run a sub 3 marathon. If you can run 10k in that time then yes with proper training a sub 3 is totally attainable. If you canā€™t, well thereā€™s your answer.
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Re: Ability required to run a sub 3 marathon [AG] [ In reply to ]
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AG wrote:
Pmswanepoel wrote:
Does one have to be genetically gifted to run a sub 3 marathon. Assuming excellent training etc, how achievable is it?

Strong correlation with shorter distances. If you canā€™t run 10k under 38 mins there is no way you can run a sub 3 marathon. If you can run 10k in that time then yes with proper training a sub 3 is totally attainable. If you canā€™t, well thereā€™s your answer.
I understand where you're trying to get to but my 10K PR is 38:27 and I went sub-3, albeit by less than 40 secs. The same for my mile and 5K times compared to where you'd expect...I could grind for longer but could never unlock those fast shorter distances. As it turned out, I also had a 13.1 PR in my sub-3 where things just came together.
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Re: Ability required to run a sub 3 marathon [DomerTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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Thatā€™s good going. Your 10km time was in the ā€œballparkā€. Also shows that if you did a focused 10km plan you would likely take 30 secs off that time.
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Re: Ability required to run a sub 3 marathon [AG] [ In reply to ]
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I don't disagree as 10K had never been a focus for me. They were just races to get me to toe the line and get those race day jitters under control.

But I had focused on a lot of those numbers and it made me go out too fast in previous marathons even knowing the wisdom of negative splits. I always felt I had to bank time and blew up.

I don't look like a distance runner. I'm average height, have an extra 10-15 lbs around my waist, and didn't grow up running other than for soccer endurance.

My unlock after too many failed attempts was getting a coach to keep me in check. I felt I owed him the easy runs he called for and the race paces he set out. Prior to that, I spent too much time pulling together my plan via internet advice and no one I was accountable to.

The nice part was that it was all virtual since it was during the pandemic so my ego wasn't allowed to go harder the way I tended to do in group runs. But we're all different and need different things.

But to answer the OP question, I'm far from genetically gifted but stubborn as they come.
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Re: Ability required to run a sub 3 marathon [AG] [ In reply to ]
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AG wrote:
Thatā€™s good going. Your 10km time was in the ā€œballparkā€. Also shows that if you did a focused 10km plan you would likely take 30 secs off that time.

I ran 2:54 at age 47. (That's 13sec/mile under 3 hrs).
I probably couldn't break 38 by much. Maybe not at all.

I was mostly training for triathlon.

I think 38 is equivalent to 3 - for young people who have more speed than fitness.

For older, slower, fitter people - 38:00 10k is more like 2:55
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Re: Ability required to run a sub 3 marathon [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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+1 here.

I've only run 38:xx 10k's but ran a marathon in 2:57 and 2:56. It might've been the 10k course I was running, but I don't think I could go much faster if at all on a 10k. I'm in my late 40's now, but did the faster marathon's in my late 30's/early 40's and I think I did ~1:24/1:25 Half Marathon's during those faster marathon days. I'm probably not far off the pace now since I can still do 38min 10k's. It's likely I couldn't do much faster per K pace for a 5k either!
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Re: Ability required to run a sub 3 marathon [DomerTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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DomerTriGuy wrote:
But to answer the OP question, I'm far from genetically gifted but stubborn as they come.

Who's to say that stubbornness isn't genetic? Maybe you're gifted in that way? Just not physically?

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Ability required to run a sub 3 marathon [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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RandMart wrote:
DomerTriGuy wrote:
But to answer the OP question, I'm far from genetically gifted but stubborn as they come.

Who's to say that stubbornness isn't genetic? Maybe you're gifted in that way? Just not physically?
Yeah...maybe there is a genetic defect. I think I'm missing a piece on my shoulder as it seems to have a chip on it šŸ˜„
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Re: Ability required to run a sub 3 marathon [DomerTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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I'm glad this thread is back, it's been my motivation to improve my running and set my sight on a sub 3 attempt in the near future.

My Strava | My Instagram | Summerville, SC | 35-39 AG | 4:41 (70.3), 10:05 (140.6) | 3x70.3, 1x140.6 | Cat 2 Cyclist
Last edited by: theyellowcarguy: Mar 20, 23 10:56
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Re: Ability required to run a sub 3 marathon [DomerTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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DomerTriGuy wrote:
RandMart wrote:
DomerTriGuy wrote:
But to answer the OP question, I'm far from genetically gifted but stubborn as they come.

Who's to say that stubbornness isn't genetic? Maybe you're gifted in that way? Just not physically?
Yeah...maybe there is a genetic defect. I think I'm missing a piece on my shoulder as it seems to have a chip on it šŸ˜„

"It's not a bug - it's a feature" as people would say

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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