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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Ah - interesting points on the timing. That could definitely make a difference. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I personally think the open/ elite wave gets complicated. Removing folks from AG awards has issues, especially considering Worlds qualifications. I wish USAT would de-emphasize the overall winners and focus on the AG aspect of AGNC

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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But see I think it makes it more simplier in that if you make it a cut and dry rule- AG slots are forfeited if you race open wave. End of story. But of course this is the “AG” national champs so by default it’ll never go down like that. Some years you’ll get in a good starting spot and some other years you won’t.

I kinda chuckle at usat when they will show X athlete breaking tape and blast it all over social media and talk about X is the fastest and then 90 mins later someone actually goes faster and suddenly a new overall champion forms…funny enough that’s happened to an athlete of mine. It creates a weird dynamic (I def had but I saw your athlete win comments from people), but I get it the running through the banner is a social media money shot. So in that aspect hope to be in the early waves to get that publicity.

Again they’ll never create an open wave. I just think it’s a bunch of different races that have so many specific variables that affect your time, “overall” placing is kinda a hard pill to swallow at times.

Eta: and that isn’t to take away from the people who race and rock solid times w the best conditions. Or to make excuses. It’s to say I don’t think they ran the same race….even though it was the same course on the same day.

Brooks Doughtie
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 9, 22 19:53
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [playguy] [ In reply to ]
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I also just want to reply that my wife and I had never been to Milwaukee (ok, I did once for half a day as an unappreciative high schooler), and we both loved it and would love to go back.

Easy connections, plenty of pre/post race activities, hotels were reasonable and in good shape, people nice, city is beautiful and not too crowded. Food good.

Course is pretty good. Can't ask for much more. The only issue is if rainy weather is common. Would be a shame to travel that far for many of us and have an already short race get shortened or canceled. You can't control the weather, but you can pick places in the appropriate season.

If I'm doing my weather probability right, Milwaukee has between 8-13 days of rain on average in August, so that's 25-40% chance of needing to adjust an event? Kind of a risky roll of the dice if the storms are such that frequent cancelation or shortening is needed.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [c365] [ In reply to ]
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c365 wrote:
I also just want to reply that my wife and I had never been to Milwaukee (ok, I did once for half a day as an unappreciative high schooler), and we both loved it and would love to go back.

Easy connections, plenty of pre/post race activities, hotels were reasonable and in good shape, people nice, city is beautiful and not too crowded. Food good.

Course is pretty good. Can't ask for much more. The only issue is if rainy weather is common. Would be a shame to travel that far for many of us and have an already short race get shortened or canceled. You can't control the weather, but you can pick places in the appropriate season.

If I'm doing my weather probability right, Milwaukee has between 8-13 days of rain on average in August, so that's 25-40% chance of needing to adjust an event? Kind of a risky roll of the dice if the storms are such that frequent cancelation or shortening is needed.

They didn't have to adjust because of rain, just because of potential thunderstorms. Those are pretty rare to see in the morning there.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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jwmott wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Why not just have an open wave and by entering the open wave you forfeit AG classification and/or worlds slots.


This could certainly work, but it could get messy as it often does when there is this kind of wave/division at smaller races. I think it likely ends up pitting more of the top athletes head-to-head, so that's good. But what if the overall fastest time isn't from this wave? Are they still "national champion"? Or do you have to be in the open wave to be considered for overall placing?

We have this at our local race series in Colorado. What ends up happening is that about half the top 10 is in the elite division and half isn't for whatever reason (age group podium pics look better on Instagram than no podium pic in the elite wave?). It becomes sort of pointless. With worlds slots (which I'm sure some of the top athletes do care about), the pull to not enter the open/elite wave becomes even stronger than it is at the local races.

For this to work well I think there needs to be a strong incentive to be in the open wave. Or even forced entry into the wave above a certain USAT ranking score (though that is bad for those that do care about worlds if worlds doesn't have this category too). I don't see a strong enough incentive to get all the fastest people in this wave voluntarily until it is some exclusive/qualification thing that culturally is sought after.

I still think doing the waves by USAT score would be best (not perfect). Sure, the top of an age group might start 2 hours before the bottom of an age group, but those people aren't really competing anyways even though they're in the same age group. I don't think you'd have anyone complaining about that.


I agree with this. I don't know how having an elite/open wave but excluding those athletes from World Champs + AG Podiums solves anything when they're still all AG athletes & not everyone would move over. We're having the same issue where half of the best athletes would square off & half would go try to age group podium. I would just have 1 wave start first & use score rating to determine who is in that wave. My wave was ~150 or so. That would be ~95 score rating based on 2021. You could do something smaller. If someone outside of the top-150 finishes ahead of someone who started in the first wave then then they finish ahead of them for their age group & overall. If you're in that first wave you have nothing to complain about since you started first & started with the fastest athletes.
Last edited by: dcpinsonn: Aug 10, 22 4:04
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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jwmott wrote:
That was for last year's Nationals and this year's worlds. I recall reading that when trying to find information on qualification for this year. They linked to last year's document somewhere. It was a little hard to find this year's qualification information.

For Olympic distance, I believe there are some deferrals to deal with into 2023 for those who had a valid basis to not race in Abu Dhabi this year (I don't recall exact contours of "valid basis" but it had to due with repressive nature of government there). I have no idea how many such deferrals there are.

Also, I believe roll downs can happen further down the line. At AGN, people are just indicating intent. A few weeks later, you have to pony up some $s (has been $75) to hold spot. I believe the slots that don't pay by the deadline then roll down. Also, I believe even after that, if slots open up they can roll down as long as they open up well before entries have to be submitted to World Triathlon (so if you claim a spot (even if you've paid money for it) and then learn you can't go, please let USAT know so someone else can race).
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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In your scenario of having wave 1 athletes being able to race at the front and for their specific AG category- you’ve brought in way more unfairness for the categories. Right now the only “unfairness” is overall, but this being the “AG” champs that isn’t too big of a deal cus the racers starting 2 hours later still are racing for their AG and it’s right in front of them. Win that group and your a national champion. Your scenario would have it you’ll never know where you stood in your category until all the results are posted cus you would have athletes in 2 different waves potentially 2 hours apart etc.

You can’t have a category based championship and then not have them race at the same time. Your solution creates way more unfairness than any solution.

Thus the most fairest solution is that instead of AG wave 1 competes for overall only. They don’t get to race the best conditions and race for AG when their AG could be 90 mins later. But again you have to deny them AG award cus they wouldn’t be racing in M 30-34 or F 16-19 etc. it’s simply their “category” would be open. They do that already at plenty of local racing events. 4th place open but 1st place M25-29 doesn’t get the AG award, their award is 4th place.

Who says it can’t be like that at AG champs? That is way better solution than allowing for the AG categories to have athletes not racing together and results go together. You have to race the category you are assigned at the SAME time, as the fairest way of doing it. Anything else does not solve the fairness issue we are debating.


Of course they’ll never create an open wave. But your solution solves way less than the solution I suggested.

Brooks Doughtie
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 10, 22 5:43
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Really like how you're dealing in absolutes -- I'm just throwing some ideas out there and think the problem with what you're proposing is that you still wouldn't get all of the best athletes competing against one another, which is the problem we're trying to solve right? What I'm proposing is a somewhat lax standard for the 1st/elite/open wave so most people gunning for age group awards are competing at the same time. That does a lot to fix the fairness component if the age group award winners are all in that wave. This isn't a local triathlon where you have 1 4th place open not getting an award like in your scenario. Do the elite wave by score rating & then if someone shows up at AG Nats & does really well out of a later wave you still reward them. Is it perfect? No. But so many good age group athletes wouldn't go for what else has been thrown out there.

I do agree, overall, that AG Nationals does a good job currently of deciding who is the best in each age group. I'd rather keep the current system if something is proposed that doesn't get all of the top athletes competing against one another. Right now overall place & score rating is affected by where you start. You could miss out on an overall podium or your pro card because you started an hour or two after other athletes. I get that this is a unique problem and those athletes will likely just do what they need to do at another race.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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My assumption is if the elite wave thing happened you're going to see 10 people enter it who have a real chance and another 50 who just want the pride of being "elite" and racing earlier, and while also good have almost no chance of top 10.

That frees up others to step into AG podium spots. The problem with that is, I assume USAT would like to send a competitive group to the world championships. So from that stand point elite should get first dibs on worlds slots but not get the podium placing in their AG sense they didn't actually race against their AG.

Seems fair?
Last edited by: c365: Aug 10, 22 7:15
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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But what I'm proposing is already being done every weekend at local events. Tons of race companies have open waves and AG waves. You race and are scored based on the category you pick. Race open- you don't get AG awards. Race AG you may miss out on the "best" competition but you get scored according to your AG.


I'm not trying to recreate the wheel. It's already being used successful at tons of races across the country.


(you and several others including myself have already mentioned that.....not sure why it's that complicated...it's only complicated cus it'll never happen at "AG" nats an event that is based on racing your AG...IE that is the only "waves" that want to be created).


So this is all theoretical debate, they aren't going to create an open wave and force the top X to race in it, they aren't going to create an open wave and exclude you from AG awards, the current setup is the fairest for the individual AG's, which is the whole point of the championship- only the overall placings are "unfair" (and which we are debating a better solution).

Brooks Doughtie
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 10, 22 7:46
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [kristofredei] [ In reply to ]
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kristofredei wrote:
Had a blast at the Oly race and pumped to hear it might end up back in Milwaukee again next year!

Question on the rolldown for worlds slots in case anyone's in the know - I was just outside the rolldown window for my AG but realized after I got home that I'd forgotten about the age-up rule and might actually be in the mix in the aged-up group. Has anyone seen aged-up results yet or are they planning to post them? Did I miss out on my (slim) chance by not hitting the lounge/awards ceremony on the day of and letting them know I'm interested, or do they still contact people regardless?

Hard to say... in the Oly they took 18 and the Sprint took 8 with the age up adjustments. Someone at the lounge had it pulled up on their phone, so it is available somewhere.

Either way if you're interested in a Worlds slot, I'd e-mail USAT to be sure.

In terms of my own race, starting at almost 9:30 was tough for me on Saturday. I don't do well in that sort of weather and I went around 8 minutes slower and fell off the podium... was in 10th off the bike after clawing through 20'sh spots on the bike... my worst swim at this venue for some reason. My mantra in my head went something like... 'don't stop' during the run. The Super Sprint went a little better for me and found the podium there.

Good weekend overall.
Last edited by: xeon: Aug 10, 22 8:39
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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In the Team USA lounge for Olympic race USAT was allowing the top 18 per AG to indicate they would or would not be attending 2023 Pontevedra worlds. They said anyone outside top 18 would be contacted in the future re roll downs.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [kristofredei] [ In reply to ]
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Aged-up results are posted here now: https://www.teamusa.org/...hampionships/results
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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If you go beyond just wave 1 being based on ability (have the highest X USAT scores in wave 1, the next highest X in wave 2, etc.) then you solve the problem of anyone starting 2 hours apart (or even 15 minutes apart) from anyone else that will have a remotely similar finishing time.

The person in wave 20 going 3:15 isn't going to complain that they got 300th in their age group just because they started 2 hours later than the person that went 1:55 and won their age group and went in wave 1. Sure, the person in wave 1 may have had better conditions but it didn't affect their placing relative to the person in wave 20. The person in wave 2 going 2:05 also isn't going to complain that they got 10th but would have won if they went 10 minutes earlier in wave 1. They had practically the same race conditions as the wave 1 winner who started 10 minutes earlier. See?

This practically guarantees that everyone races against all their closest competitors, practically guarantees that the first to cross the line is the overall winner, and still makes age group results for all age groups fair.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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dcpinsonn wrote:
I'd rather keep the current system if something is proposed that doesn't get all of the top athletes competing against one another.

Agree. It is pretty good how it is now. The only way to improve it is to guarantee all the top athletes going head to head while preserving eligibility for age group awards and worlds slots for everyone.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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Good to know about roll downs. I just recalled writing a deposit check on site in 2014.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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In theory that sounds good but I assume you would have to base it on the previous year's USAT rankings because USAT has proven that it is incapable of keeping their ranking system up to date? You would think that the race they put on just four and five days ago would be entered into their own ranking system but amazingly the results are nowhere to be found. Under results it indicates results are not available yet. To add further insult to injury their own tracking system app is no longer working. It says Congrats to all Participants and underneath it says upcoming. When you tap on top finishers - nothing. USAT is woefully inept at a very basic task unfortunately.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [c365] [ In reply to ]
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c365 wrote:
So from that stand point elite should get first dibs on worlds slots but not get the podium placing in their AG sense they didn't actually race against their AG.


This is actually a pretty reasonable way of doing the elite wave while leaving the other waves alone. You already aren't racing head-to-head with your competition for worlds slots because of the aged-up results being used. Remove the elite wave from age group awards but throw them all back into their age groups for worlds slots.

This is how elite waves worked in local races in Wisconsin back about 10 years ago. You were separate for race awards but placed back into your age group when the results were submitted to USAT, which allowed you to race in the elite wave without being worried about not earning Nationals qualification.
Last edited by: jwmott: Aug 11, 22 14:20
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
But what I'm proposing is already being done every weekend at local events. Tons of race companies have open waves and AG waves. You race and are scored based on the category you pick. Race open- you don't get AG awards. Race AG you may miss out on the "best" competition but you get scored according to your AG.


I'm not trying to recreate the wheel. It's already being used successful at tons of races across the country.


(you and several others including myself have already mentioned that.....not sure why it's that complicated...it's only complicated cus it'll never happen at "AG" nats an event that is based on racing your AG...IE that is the only "waves" that want to be created).


So this is all theoretical debate, they aren't going to create an open wave and force the top X to race in it, they aren't going to create an open wave and exclude you from AG awards, the current setup is the fairest for the individual AG's, which is the whole point of the championship- only the overall placings are "unfair" (and which we are debating a better solution).

It's already being done every weekend, but it is broken and doesn't accomplish the goal (for some people) of getting all the top competitors racing head-to-head because entry into the wave is voluntary. Some people don't know about it, some people think it is for professionals only, some people would rather get a podium picture from winning their age group, etc. It's all fine, but I think there is room for improvement in triathlon to create more compelling head-to-head competition.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, it would ideally be based on your latest results but you're right USAT has a ways to go in that department.

The results are available here FWIW: https://www.teamusa.org/...hampionships/results
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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Ah, your advocating for the ole desert dude "category" based system based on ability and not age for racing (he's been suggesting that for years and likely rightfully so). I just don't think you can "force" people into a time/finish based wave start, at an event that is based on racing individuals in your own age category *at the same time*.

Brooks Doughtie
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 11, 22 14:53
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Ha, yeah I'll always be advocating for a category system in triathlon! But my Nationals proposal is a step back from that, just organizing waves by ability but still having age groups.

I still really don't think the top and bottom of an age group care if they start at the same time, but maybe others feel differently. If they did waves by ability next year, I think the majority of reactions would be somewhere between "sweet!" and "whatever" with little complaining.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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Funny enough I just saw this article on triathlete magazine about the cat system.

I "credit" desert dude with the idea because I know he's been talking about it for years (I've been on ST since summer of '08) and he's the 1st person in the industry that I ever saw talk about it.

https://www.triathlete.com/culture/a-case-for-cycling-categories-in-triathlon/


More realistic than overhauling the way USAT does age groups or time trialing would be to require any USAT-sanctioned race to offer an elite age group wave—which has happened sporadically at short-course events in the past. This wave would allow top male and female age group athletes to race the way they really want to – against others of the same ability and truly battling it out for the overall amateur title.
Yount is all for it. He agreed that having top age groupers race against each other in one wave can be beneficial for the athletes, the race, and the sport – but it takes a conversation to make this change.
“Race directors, especially local ones, are usually open to suggestions about how they can improve their races,” Yount said. “Don’t be afraid to approach a race director and enter into that problem-solving type of conversation about how to make a race more attractive to top age groupers. You may be surprised at how willing a race director is to accommodate your ask.”






Essentially they think as Tim Yount was quoted in the article, to make an elite AG wave to start (similiar to what many races already do with the open wave we've already discussed...it's just not "required" to enter unless you want too).





Brooks Doughtie
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 13, 22 17:57
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Funny enough I just saw this article on triathlete magazine about the cat system.

I "credit" desert dude with the idea because I know he's been talking about it for years (I've been on ST since summer of '08) and he's the 1st person in the industry that I ever saw talk about it.

https://www.triathlete.com/culture/a-case-for-cycling-categories-in-triathlon/


I can remember talking to someone at USAT about a category system a long, long time ago. I had sketched out how it would work for upgrades, Pro & AG etc.
When I talked with someone at USAT about that it landed with the loudest thud I've ever heard.


Along with that I had also sketched out a tier system for long course races. It allowed the 2 biggest race companies in the world each a top tier event (IMH & Roth). It set up a development pathway for LC pros so that 1st & second year pros could learn to race while still getting an opportunity to go head to head with the best in the world now and then, insured that the biggest names would be racing each other for the biggest prize purses, made several more events marquee events (companies could rotate these if they wanted), set up a system to insure that there was an opportunity for new pros to develop so they might stay in the sport more than 2 years

That also landed with a very loud thud when I presented it to a race company.

I got the feeling that both were more interested in short term (1-2yr) vs developing a product that could lead to long(er) term greater success

Brian Stover USAT L1
Accelerate3 Coaching
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