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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [42point2] [ In reply to ]
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42point2 wrote:
salmon wrote:
I think we need to make a distinction between riding as far to the right as possible and as far to the right as practicable. For example, on one of the local county roads, the road is starting to break up on the right side, for about 2 feet. While it may be possible to ride in that broken pavement, it is more practicable to ride to the left of the crumbly asphalt. I think the local law uses the term practicable. I think Forster's book on "Effective Cycling" covers this.


It seems like everyone here is agreeing that as far right as practical is what should be done, as there will be obstacles to avoid and you need a little space between you and the edge of the road. However some motorists/police who don’t ride may expect cyclists to be an inch away from the gutter. As we saw in Casey Neistat’s video ‘bike lanes’ unfortunately cyclists are given unrealistic expectations. Though at the same time it’s not uncommon for Cyclists to be jerks, so you can see why some will have a negative view.

It is when cars are overtaking, it can get dangerous. In DK there is a demand, that when overtaking there must be a safe distance, but it is not fixed. In Germany and Spain there is a fixed minimum distance at 2 or 3 feet when overtaking bikes. If a lane isn’t wide enough, overtaking is prohibited… I guess a lot of car drivers fail to follow that law.

This issue is about pedestrians, bikes and cars all must co exist at the roads, without accidents
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [Kay9Cop] [ In reply to ]
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I have a question for ya since you are a police officer and cyclist - I've always wondered about this. We have very similar wording in my jurisdiction to what you mentioned, "bicyclists are required to ride closes to the right edge of the roadway". My question is about the definition of 'roadway'. Say I'm riding on a road, and there is a paved shoulder that does not meet the definition of a bike lane. Is that paved shoulder considered part of the roadway? If no, then am I riding legally even if I'm say 1 foot from the left side of the white line?

_______________________________________________
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
I ride in Quebec and Ontario (two Canadian provinces), an hour between the two locations

If I did the "ride to the left and make people slow down to pass" in Ontario, I'd probably get away with it.

In Quebec, I'm begging for an altercation with a driver. I'm begging to get buzzed. Hi probability it will be in a pickup truck :-)

The Garmin Varia has been the greatest thing since sliced bread. It allows me to ride a little more to the left until a car comes and then move over and be cautious until he passes.

It doesn't really matter what the law says. I'd rather be wrong than dead.

What Garmin device do you use with this? I've got a 945 and it says its compatible. Might be a good Christmas present to ask for.

AJ

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IM WC Hawaii 2024
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [Tri Bread] [ In reply to ]
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Tri Bread wrote:


What Garmin device do you use with this? I've got a 945 and it says its compatible. Might be a good Christmas present to ask for.


I use it with a 530. I am surprised and disappointed it doesn't work with a 945.

A quick peek I see a youtube on how to do it but not sure how valid it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPTGHZEtP6U
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the video posting. I'll have a look at what DCR says as well. But at first glance I think it would be hard for me to see that on my watch (my eyes are getting old, just like my knees!). Might be worth getting the bundle package though which just has three lights (g,y,r). Interesting.

AJ

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IM WC Hawaii 2024
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
Kay9Cop wrote:
It’s the law in my jurisdiction. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. I don’t know what the law is in Toronto or Britain.

It bothers me when folks claiming to be cyclists advocate breaking the law because they feel entitled as a cyclist.

Post it.

You're a sad example of your job if you're going to tell people to do something that's inherently very very dangerous and can get them killed.

I can't stand folks like you. You know exactly the scenario we're talking about and you're standing likely on the old school "to the right as practicable". Which the assholes interpret as shoving bikes into the gutter and clipping them and killing them as they pass.

If you're talking about a person riding dead center of a lane, fine. If you're going to try to sit here in a forum with bike riders and tell them to ride the right white line, you're a freaking douche that's going to get someone killed and you need to be called out.

What's your jurisdiction? Maybe we should call them up and and have a chat about this one as you don't seem to understand how to interpret that pretty common law.

Jesus you seem like you need to take a few deep breaths or possibly regroup yourself before you get back into this thread. And you came in swinging talking about douche bag cops. Your axe grinding is duly noted.

Here there is literally a cop and a cyclist offering his very polite opinions, and also presenting factual laws from his jurisdiction, which other posters have chimed in to show is similar to where they live, and you’re going off on how terrible this person is, you can’t stand people like them, he’s a sad example of his job etc.

And we wonder why progress doesn’t get made on these topics? I don’t have a strong opinion on this matter but I can tell you that your posts from the get go were obnoxious and biased.
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [Tri Bread] [ In reply to ]
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Tri Bread wrote:
Thanks for the video posting. I'll have a look at what DCR says as well. But at first glance I think it would be hard for me to see that on my watch (my eyes are getting old, just like my knees!). Might be worth getting the bundle package though which just has three lights (g,y,r). Interesting.


I use the Varia with my 945, it works perfectly. You get the colors, dots for cars, beeps, no problemo. Pairing it is easy too. Just get it you won't regret it.

I hear why folks above have complained about the rule "ride as far right as possible" as being bad, but I think riding as far right as 'practical' pretty much sums it up.

I hate when riders have a perfectly wide, beautiful shoulder (which we do have often here in NorCal), and the cyclists insist on riding as far LEFT as possible, which means they're pretty much 1-2 inches off the right road marking line. This happens more often than not, which means me, as usually the faster rider on the aero TT bike, have to pass in the road, because the few times I've passed on the right because there was an entire car-width space on the right, have gotten me cursed out by the cyclist I pass, even when I announce I'm coming from behind on the right (I understand that, but if he just rode slightly to the right, and not even close to the gutter, I'd easily pass on the left.)

I'm as bike-friendly a driver as they come as well, but it's also a minor pet peeve of mine when I'm driving on a decently busy road with posted speed limits of 50mph, which also has a really large nice shoulder for cycling, and these cyclists again are riding at the leftmost portion of the shoulder, to the point I have to slow down or change lanes as I get near them because they're constantly drifting into the car lane. When you've got a really wide road shoulder (I know, I ride that same route a LOT!), you shouldn't be pushing up on the fast-moving cars.

When there's no shoulder, I'm always super safe and have no problems waiting as long as needed to make a safe pass with the car with ample room. Even if it means backing up some traffic behind me.
Last edited by: lightheir: Aug 12, 22 13:44
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:
Kay9Cop wrote:
It’s the law in my jurisdiction. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. I don’t know what the law is in Toronto or Britain.

It bothers me when folks claiming to be cyclists advocate breaking the law because they feel entitled as a cyclist.

Post it.

You're a sad example of your job if you're going to tell people to do something that's inherently very very dangerous and can get them killed.

I can't stand folks like you. You know exactly the scenario we're talking about and you're standing likely on the old school "to the right as practicable". Which the assholes interpret as shoving bikes into the gutter and clipping them and killing them as they pass.

If you're talking about a person riding dead center of a lane, fine. If you're going to try to sit here in a forum with bike riders and tell them to ride the right white line, you're a freaking douche that's going to get someone killed and you need to be called out.

What's your jurisdiction? Maybe we should call them up and and have a chat about this one as you don't seem to understand how to interpret that pretty common law.

Jesus you seem like you need to take a few deep breaths or possibly regroup yourself before you get back into this thread. And you came in swinging talking about douche bag cops. Your axe grinding is duly noted.

Here there is literally a cop and a cyclist offering his very polite opinions, and also presenting factual laws from his jurisdiction, which other posters have chimed in to show is similar to where they live, and you’re going off on how terrible this person is, you can’t stand people like them, he’s a sad example of his job etc.

And we wonder why progress doesn’t get made on these topics? I don’t have a strong opinion on this matter but I can tell you that your posts from the get go were obnoxious and biased.

I second this - bizarre, disproportionate and misguided reaction.
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [MattRnr] [ In reply to ]
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To respond to your original question.

High Park in Toronto has a 1.8km loop. It has a downhill section that occupies half the distance, at the fastest part of the loop there are two stop signs (as I remember). There are also stop signs at the top and a merging traffic lane. I have ridden the loop and although the speed limit is 20kph (12 1/2 mph), no one takes the slightest notice. There are restaurants and other food trucks that attract a lot of people as well as a children's zoo and a spring Cherry Blossom festival. The place, on a nice day is packed with people and kiddies. They all cross the road wherever they choose, because that's what people do in a park.

There's always a group or ten who ramp up the speed, not to mention E Bikes, motor bikes and of course the idiots in cars who have no better awareness, except they weigh 4,000 lbs. All of them are on their phones at some point.

Around the time of the Tours in Europe, all the wannabes are out in full force. Enforcing a simple stop sign requirement and a speed limit ruins it for all these future tour riders.

If I want to ride that's not a place I'm going unless I want a burgher.

As for, is it bad in Toronto for cyclists, not really. If we get pissed at anyone here, the likelihood of being shot is minimal. The average number of cyclists killed here is around seven ( although it is twelve this year to date). So, on average the same as Chicago, although it should be remembered Toronto has a much larger population.

Hope that helps.

ps I ride about 200k a week on Toronto roads, but almost none on a road (without a bike lane). I live in the absolute center of the city.
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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Agree
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
MattRnr wrote:
According to cyclists accounts, the Toronto Police are outright harassing and even assaulting cyclists. Is it really this bad there?

https://www.bicycling.com/...s-injured-by-police/


It's a common strongarm douche cop thing in NYC and in Britain. I get that road.cc has a few too many incident reports with vague info, but it makes you wonder sometimes.

I think it will get to the point of a cop getting caught on camera and someone suing the city for millions if they don't stop. Often, with issues like this that aren't even bike/pedestrian related, that's the outcome.

I don't doubt it will take that in this instance.

As someone in UK I've never experienced, or know any other cyclists, who have experienced anything like this. Maybe there is somewhere in UK where it happens, but its definitely not the norm or common across the whole country.
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [James2020] [ In reply to ]
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UK rider here. We're told, and taught in schools, about Primary and Secondary position on the road. We now have 1.5m clearance that vehicles are expected to give cyclists or in theory have action taken for a close pass by the police. Effectively over taking vehicles on a two lane road need to go in to the other lane to pass, squeezing past in the same lane will be a close pass.

Secondary position is essentially the inside wheel track position of a car, not the gutter, for most riding. Primary position is middle of the lane when you need to assert your position where there is danger of people not seeing you around corners/ busy streets/squeezing past at traffic islands etx/ roundabout lanes and junctions.

Chris Boardman, who I assume any cyclist knows of, is very involved and vocal on the issues as the cycling and walking commissioner for Manchester.

I know people have had speeding tickets and being stopped in some busy London parks, but other than London I'm not aware of it. It's pretty uncommon really.

Police knowledge and application of the law varies widely in the UK, but some forces, noteably West Midland Police, are very proactive in educating drivers on cycle least and close passes. Police in some rural locations I've lived don't seem interested in protecting law abiding cyclists even with vidoe footage of incidents.

As for cyclists not obeying rules of the road, obviously it happens , some people are just dicks, but compared to the number of drivers speeding, drink/drug driving, on phones, not signalling, pulling out at junctions/through lights, uninsured and in unsafe vehicles, and the hazard and deaths that causes it is almost insignificant.
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [PJH] [ In reply to ]
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PJH wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:
Kay9Cop wrote:
It’s the law in my jurisdiction. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. I don’t know what the law is in Toronto or Britain.

It bothers me when folks claiming to be cyclists advocate breaking the law because they feel entitled as a cyclist.


Post it.

You're a sad example of your job if you're going to tell people to do something that's inherently very very dangerous and can get them killed.

I can't stand folks like you. You know exactly the scenario we're talking about and you're standing likely on the old school "to the right as practicable". Which the assholes interpret as shoving bikes into the gutter and clipping them and killing them as they pass.

If you're talking about a person riding dead center of a lane, fine. If you're going to try to sit here in a forum with bike riders and tell them to ride the right white line, you're a freaking douche that's going to get someone killed and you need to be called out.

What's your jurisdiction? Maybe we should call them up and and have a chat about this one as you don't seem to understand how to interpret that pretty common law.


Jesus you seem like you need to take a few deep breaths or possibly regroup yourself before you get back into this thread. And you came in swinging talking about douche bag cops. Your axe grinding is duly noted.

Here there is literally a cop and a cyclist offering his very polite opinions, and also presenting factual laws from his jurisdiction, which other posters have chimed in to show is similar to where they live, and you’re going off on how terrible this person is, you can’t stand people like them, he’s a sad example of his job etc.

And we wonder why progress doesn’t get made on these topics? I don’t have a strong opinion on this matter but I can tell you that your posts from the get go were obnoxious and biased.


I second this - bizarre, disproportionate and misguided reaction.

And yet he is right

When my life is on the line I don't take bullshit from anyone, whether it's a self-proclaimed cop or not.

Drivers and cars do need a permit to drive through the roads. Cyclists (and walkers and runners) don't because it's our right.
Bear that in mind the next time you feel entitled to harass a cyclist, officer.
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [elquike] [ In reply to ]
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elquike wrote:
PJH wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:
Kay9Cop wrote:
It’s the law in my jurisdiction. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. I don’t know what the law is in Toronto or Britain.

It bothers me when folks claiming to be cyclists advocate breaking the law because they feel entitled as a cyclist.


Post it.

You're a sad example of your job if you're going to tell people to do something that's inherently very very dangerous and can get them killed.

I can't stand folks like you. You know exactly the scenario we're talking about and you're standing likely on the old school "to the right as practicable". Which the assholes interpret as shoving bikes into the gutter and clipping them and killing them as they pass.

If you're talking about a person riding dead center of a lane, fine. If you're going to try to sit here in a forum with bike riders and tell them to ride the right white line, you're a freaking douche that's going to get someone killed and you need to be called out.

What's your jurisdiction? Maybe we should call them up and and have a chat about this one as you don't seem to understand how to interpret that pretty common law.


Jesus you seem like you need to take a few deep breaths or possibly regroup yourself before you get back into this thread. And you came in swinging talking about douche bag cops. Your axe grinding is duly noted.

Here there is literally a cop and a cyclist offering his very polite opinions, and also presenting factual laws from his jurisdiction, which other posters have chimed in to show is similar to where they live, and you’re going off on how terrible this person is, you can’t stand people like them, he’s a sad example of his job etc.

And we wonder why progress doesn’t get made on these topics? I don’t have a strong opinion on this matter but I can tell you that your posts from the get go were obnoxious and biased.


I second this - bizarre, disproportionate and misguided reaction.


And yet he is right

When my life is on the line I don't take bullshit from anyone, whether it's a self-proclaimed cop or not.

Drivers and cars do need a permit to drive through the roads. Cyclists (and walkers and runners) don't because it's our right.
Bear that in mind the next time you feel entitled to harass a cyclist, officer.


Ahh so as long as you’re “right” it’s carte blanche to be rude and disingenuous? Ok got it, thanks.

Actually what I should have said was that him being “right” is also up for debate. BTS came in absolutely swinging and was proven wrong by multiple posters who said their laws regarding riding position were the same as Kay9’s. BTS is acting like Kay9 wrote the laws and wants riders dead. That’s just utterly ridiculous and disingenuous. Which was followed by ad hominem attacks. That’s a lot of intellectual dishonesty right there.

My original point still stands. I was commenting on how BTS was participating in this thread, right or wrong. Yet on that point, I reiterate that being “right” in a thread where you disagree with a poster (who was being quite deferential) doesn’t call for the language, tone, or lack of courtesy that was used to get his point or feelings across.
Last edited by: Yeeper: Aug 13, 22 8:17
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
elquike wrote:
PJH wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:
Kay9Cop wrote:
It’s the law in my jurisdiction. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. I don’t know what the law is in Toronto or Britain.

It bothers me when folks claiming to be cyclists advocate breaking the law because they feel entitled as a cyclist.


Post it.

You're a sad example of your job if you're going to tell people to do something that's inherently very very dangerous and can get them killed.

I can't stand folks like you. You know exactly the scenario we're talking about and you're standing likely on the old school "to the right as practicable". Which the assholes interpret as shoving bikes into the gutter and clipping them and killing them as they pass.

If you're talking about a person riding dead center of a lane, fine. If you're going to try to sit here in a forum with bike riders and tell them to ride the right white line, you're a freaking douche that's going to get someone killed and you need to be called out.

What's your jurisdiction? Maybe we should call them up and and have a chat about this one as you don't seem to understand how to interpret that pretty common law.


Jesus you seem like you need to take a few deep breaths or possibly regroup yourself before you get back into this thread. And you came in swinging talking about douche bag cops. Your axe grinding is duly noted.

Here there is literally a cop and a cyclist offering his very polite opinions, and also presenting factual laws from his jurisdiction, which other posters have chimed in to show is similar to where they live, and you’re going off on how terrible this person is, you can’t stand people like them, he’s a sad example of his job etc.

And we wonder why progress doesn’t get made on these topics? I don’t have a strong opinion on this matter but I can tell you that your posts from the get go were obnoxious and biased.


I second this - bizarre, disproportionate and misguided reaction.


And yet he is right

When my life is on the line I don't take bullshit from anyone, whether it's a self-proclaimed cop or not.

Drivers and cars do need a permit to drive through the roads. Cyclists (and walkers and runners) don't because it's our right.
Bear that in mind the next time you feel entitled to harass a cyclist, officer.


Ahh so as long as you’re “right” it’s carte blanche to be rude and disingenuous? Ok got it, thanks.

Actually what I should have said was that him being “right” is also up for debate. BTS came in absolutely swinging and was proven wrong by multiple posters who said their laws regarding riding position were the same as Kay9’s. BTS is acting like Kay9 wrote the laws and wants riders dead. That’s just utterly ridiculous and disingenuous. Which was followed by ad hominem attacks. That’s a lot of intellectual dishonesty right there.

My original point still stands. I was commenting on how BTS was participating in this thread, right or wrong. Yet on that point, I reiterate that being “right” in a thread where you disagree with a poster (who was being quite deferential) doesn’t call for the language, tone, or lack of courtesy that was used to get his point or feelings across.

I understand you don't get triggered by someone putting cyclists in danger but you do when someone uses rude words. I really do, because I'm the other way round.

More on topic, just to be clear: The job of cops is not to protect you or me (as many have recently discovered!). But if they go one step ahead and harass me while I'm trying to be safe while riding I'm going to call them out.

And sure I'd better call my political representative and yadda yadda yadda but in the meantime I'm not staying silent. Because that's what triggers me.

But you want to talk about manners? Ok, whatever...
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [MattRnr] [ In reply to ]
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According to cyclists accounts, the Toronto Police are outright harassing and even assaulting cyclists. Is it really this bad there?

Yes and no!

Like many things this is a complicated situation.

There is a 20km/h speed limit on High Park Roads, and on a favorite loop that cyclists like to do - there are several Stop signs. High Park, while not that even a comparison High Park would be somewhat akin to Central Park in NYC. High Park is a busy multi-use urban park!

There is uproar in the cycling community because, the situation out on the roads of Toronto ( and in the GTA) has become worse in many ways. There is a much heightened level of belligerence from motorists and behavior that they can literarily do anything they want to.

The above goes beyond anecdotal. In 2019 then Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders let it slip in a Radio Interview that the Toronto Police had withdrawn from almost ALL Traffic Enforcement work, and it had been that way for a number of years. There was then some stats that came out that in the previous 5 years from the Chief saying this, that driver-to-driver crashes, collisions between drivers and pedestrians/cyclists, and fatalities of that latter group, were ALL up notably!! How could that be construed in ANYWAY as a good thing. Adding to the irony of this is that the Mayor of Toronto along with the Toronto Police had be advocating for a number of years about #VisionZero!!

Just recently I was out for a ride up north of Toronto near Aurora where I live in York Region. I was stopped at a light and a York Region Police Cruiser pulls up beside me. I sat there and watched as a driver on the cross road completely ran a Red Light right in front of us. I gave the WTF signal to the Police Officer - he shrugged his shoulders!! I sight this showing that, that is where we are at . . no one seems to care. There are minimal to no consequences for Motorists, who as I mentioned literally do anything they want to - illegal or otherwise, unsafe, or otherwise on the roads.

Last year, despite fewer miles driven collectively in the GTA by motorists (due to the pandemic), Pedestrian and Cyclists fatalities were up, AGAIN!

I say all of this to explain WHY the cycling community was outraged by what was going on in High Park. Yes the cyclists were speeding. Yes they ran Stop signs. But no one was hurt/killed. Meanwhile on the roads of Toronto and the GTA, Motorists do whatever they want to and more and more pedestrians/cyclists than ever are getting hurt and killed. Make a mistake, break the law, and drive recklessly in a motor vehicle - REALLY bad things happen, VERY quickly. Why is NOTHING being done to address that??


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Aug 13, 22 14:56
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [elquike] [ In reply to ]
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I’m really not sure what makes you think I don’t care about cyclists. My one friend has been clipped twice since he started riding. One put him in a ditch. My other friend who we ride with got hit last year and ended up with surgery on his clavicle and shoulder. I don’t trust people driving. I ride enough to be concerned.

The fact that you’re using the word triggered by default when someone has an issue with another poster’s MO pretty much sums up the fact that you’re not going to be coming into a discussion level-headed. Therefore it will be pointless. Exactly how BTS came in.

Again, my points stand. This has nothing to do with being triggered or not. This is about fostering productive dialogue. For the purposes of fruitful discussion, you have both shown your cards and that’s fine. You do you. When people fail to continue to respond some people think they’ve “won” when in reality the people who disengage realize it’s not worth their time to continue.


Have a good rest of the weekend.
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Re: Is it really this bad for cyclists in Toronto? (crazy News Article) [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough: I do NOT think you don't care for cyclists.

What I believe is that you're more concerned about words than acts. Which---again---is fine, just not my modus operandi. Yet, I won't be using words like "trigger" anymore because it seems you find them pejorative. My apologies if you ever felt yourself diminished in any way. I sincerely hope you feel better now.

There are no winners, though. Only losers. Those who lose their time, those who lose their lives.

However, as it seems, you'd better disengage thus there's nothing I can do. Nor will I.


Except maybe if ... nah just kidding. Good weekend

Yeeper wrote:
When people fail to continue to respond some people think they’ve “won” when in reality the people who disengage realize it’s not worth their time to continue.
I must admit: This phrase is pure machiavellian. I love it. Well played, sir!
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