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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Lawyers...

Plus I plan on driving my truck for the next 20 years (or til I die) and it ain't got any of that shit.

You say you'll keep what you have until gas is $20, inner cities ban old polluting cars, and there's an emissions tax. Either you'll give it up before then, or you'll drive far less. Both achieve the same goal.
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
which is why i've said it's at min 2 decades away from actually thinking we are more safer, and actually are more safer. And yes we'll still have issues and people will still dirve 80 mph and crash and kill each other in highway crashes, etc.

But it's not binary. Even if just 5% of cars have the tech, you are already 5% safer. We don't have to wait until 90% of current cars have been replaced to "actually feeling we are more safer."

There will always be an idiot in an old car somewhere, but it doesn't matter. It's a game of probability.
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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The question/comment was brought up if the technology will be there in “our lifetime”. 5% increases still takes a decade and a half to get the majority of road users on the safest technology.

So yes 5% is safer, but 5% a year still means people have to make serious decisions on how they’ll ride. Whereas if you have 80% or road users using all the best technology suddenly your looking at much safer options.

So that’s what I’m getting at. When are we getting to a point where distracted / drunk drivers are saved from their own stupidity etc. and yes we’ll still have people dying on roads with 99.99% “safest” options being used. Your going to die when your run over by a car going 55mph. Your going to die on highways when you crash into something else at 80mph. But when all the safest tech is being used it’ll be far less often.

Right now 5% safety increase won’t cut it.

Brooks Doughtie
-USAT Level II
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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BigBoyND wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:

which is why i've said it's at min 2 decades away from actually thinking we are more safer, and actually are more safer. And yes we'll still have issues and people will still dirve 80 mph and crash and kill each other in highway crashes, etc.


But it's not binary. Even if just 5% of cars have the tech, you are already 5% safer. We don't have to wait until 90% of current cars have been replaced to "actually feeling we are more safer."

There will always be an idiot in an old car somewhere, but it doesn't matter. It's a game of probability.

I'd be more worried about the kind of person who chooses a standard car when self driving is cheaply available. Thinking of the lifted, rolling coal pickup who needs to prove to every cyclist just how manly they are. Fill the roads up with 90% self-driving cars that generally drive safely, orderly, at reasonable speed. Once these people realize that self-driving cars will only defend and never fight back the lunacy will go to the next level.
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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BigBoyND wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:

which is why i've said it's at min 2 decades away from actually thinking we are more safer, and actually are more safer. And yes we'll still have issues and people will still dirve 80 mph and crash and kill each other in highway crashes, etc.


But it's not binary. Even if just 5% of cars have the tech, you are already 5% safer. We don't have to wait until 90% of current cars have been replaced to "actually feeling we are more safer."

There will always be an idiot in an old car somewhere, but it doesn't matter. It's a game of probability.

Exactly. I've been riding for over 25 years and don't know anyone who has been killed or evenly seriously injured by getting hit. I've had one proper close call in all those years. I know someone who got a life altering head injury because his hands slipped off the handlebars going over rail road tracks and I know of a guy who died falling off his rollers in his living room and hitting his head.

I don't know where or when most people are riding, but in my experience riding first thing in the morning and heading out to rural roads means encountering very few vehicles (couple dozen at most?). People here talk like they are scared to death. I honestly never feel unsafe when I ride. Not that I'm delusional that one of these days I couldn't be hit, but it just seems like a very remote chance. Most rides I'm more worried about a deer taking me out than a car.
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I hear you.

In my industry I’m constantly told planes fly themselves. I’m constantly told we will go down to one pilot. I’ma safety officer and air accident investigator, and I know human error is there main driver behind accidents, however human error exists in software. I know that liveware is terrible at some jobs like monitoring for hours on end, but we’re very good at operating outside the box or in very dynamic situations. The ideal situation is automation ring fencing the dynamic liveware.

I think a lot of the talk of how the “technology is there” omits the programming and human factors element of programming - there are no defined regulatory testing of software as far as I’m aware - and how to eradicate errors, plus how to incorporate the liveware benefits. Admittedly in transport the liveware is often more of an impediment than a bonus

Why don’t we have an annual driving licence check? Or biennial?
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:

Exactly. I've been riding for over 25 years and don't know anyone who has been killed or evenly seriously injured by getting hit. I've had one proper close call in all those years. I know someone who got a life altering head injury because his hands slipped off the handlebars going over rail road tracks and I know of a guy who died falling off his rollers in his living room and hitting his head.

I don't know where or when most people are riding, but in my experience riding first thing in the morning and heading out to rural roads means encountering very few vehicles (couple dozen at most?). People here talk like they are scared to death. I honestly never feel unsafe when I ride. Not that I'm delusional that one of these days I couldn't be hit, but it just seems like a very remote chance. Most rides I'm more worried about a deer taking me out than a car.

This is my perspective exactly. You've had one more close call than I have.

Bad things happen and it sucks but I refuse to believe we are taking some unreasonable risk riding our bikes on the road. I think the information age gives us visibility of these events and creates the illusion that they are rampant.
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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I am the bike manager for a tri shop that is one of the biggest cervelo dealers in the industry. I see the bike buying habits of people, I hear the riding habits of people as a coach. I have dealt first hand with people who have been hit, and STILL want a bike to ride after the accident. That just happened, and funny enough I put a fb post talking about it. on our business page (Inside Out Sports) I made no reference to fault, I simply said, we all need to have compassion when using roads. We get 10 Garmin varia radars and they'll alll be sold within 3 weeks. We as a bike dealer have to "forecast" the bike buying habits in order to pre order bikes, etc. I see it first hand that people are making changes to their habits....Again I'm not saying to get off the road.


I've personally been hit 2.5 times by cars (( say 0.5 cus that was a side glancing blow that didn't do much, but was from a distracted driver...it was while I was riding with a junior and thank God she wasn't involved).

I most certainly have changed my riding habits over the 23 years of riding. I will no longer ride alone anymore, and I ride with a varia + 2nd blinky light + front light. I only ride in groups and right now I dont think for a second I'm "unsafe" in those instances. But I cringe every time I or someone in the group gets dropped and has to ride some of the roads back to the shop "alone" (and no in the 25 years of shop rides we've never had a car v bike interaction...we've had cyclists crash themselves out on their own, but not by a car...we've had close calls, but no actual incidents).

The only place I'll ride alone is around the local basketball arena, we have an 1.2mi loop that is pretty much closed to traffic except the daily workers there, so I feel safe enough and don't consider that "on the roads" like I would riding out on country roads, etc. It's actually a great venue to ride cus it's got some hills and I find it to be great for strength riding.

So no I dont think it's a death trap out there. But I certainly do see first hand how bike v car has changed people's riding habits. ETA: I'm also in no way saying that we need to get off the roads. I'm actually wanting the opposite. I want it where it's SAFER for everyone to enjoy the roads. People keep saying the technology will be there....just a matter of WHEN.

Consider yourself lucky that you havent been hit or know of anyone. I would say that likely fits a very small minority- not been hit and not knowing someone who has.

Brooks Doughtie
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 15, 22 8:16
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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Where do you live? I can tell you it definitely isn't where I live. Seriously I'd have to put it on my list of potential places with a description like that.
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [Jnags7] [ In reply to ]
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Jnags7 wrote:
Where do you live? I can tell you it definitely isn't where I live. Seriously I'd have to put it on my list of potential places with a description like that.

Central Maine, no you don't want to move here for the riding just because I feel safe doing so. The riding is fairly boring and not very many options, and the roads go through cycles, some of which become all but unrideable until repaved, which can further limit the options.

I also think another factor is that cyclists are fairly rare which means drivers are a bit unsure what to do and tend to give plenty of space.

I spent most of my years riding in the area around where DE/MD/PA meet. The riding was a million times better there despite being way more populated. I don't know if it was any more unsafe, the big roads had nice shoulders and there were endless back roads with little traffic.
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [Jnags7] [ In reply to ]
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Jnags7 wrote:
Where do you live? I can tell you it definitely isn't where I live. Seriously I'd have to put it on my list of potential places with a description like that.

I live about 50 miles from where this incident took place. I think it's a good place to ride. I've seen people on this forum that live where I live complain about getting buzzed and yelled at weekly. I don't get it. I think it's as much about perception as anything else.
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I will no longer ride alone anymore, and I ride with a varia + 2nd blinky light + front light.

That's interesting. I've seen more pile ups on groups rides than anything. Ridings touching wheels, dogs coming out and causing people to swerve, etc. I remember someone hitting a groundhog.

I live on probably the most popular route around here because the road has a nice shoulder coming out of the biggish nearby city. Just two weekends ago a woman went down right in front of my house and was taken away by an ambulance. I think this was a "training ride" for an upcoming cycling event in a couple of weeks. I didn't see the accident but there were about 40 cyclists around. I assume she touched wheels or something.
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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Calculated risk. To me I’m safer crashing by touching wheels then I am riding solo and being run over. So I’ll take the risks of riding in a pack for the value of “safety in numbers”. In 25 years of our group ride we’ve had 6 crashes of people touching each other and crashing. We’ve had other single rider crashes but only 6 where 2 people touched and went down. I’ve coached athletes that workouts as a group, 2-3 weekly rides as a group. Since 2013 we’ve had 1 wheel touching crash and that was my youth athletes doing crit cornering practice.


I coach athletes that race DL, crashing in a group is part of racing and training. It’s going to happen.


So I have to assess the risk. For me I don’t have an area that to me is safe to ride alone. We’ve had too many issues that I have to make reasonable assessments. And guess what- in my same area we have people who ride solo who feel safe. I simply don’t and thus if I can ride on the same roads w group- problem solved. Our shop owner will go ride solo when he has too vs missing a long ride in the event his ride doesn’t match up to the local group rides.

You may assess that group ride is more dangerous. We all have to make our own decisions when riding the roads. That’s how I can continue to ride on the roads, that’s how my riding habits have changed.

Brooks Doughtie
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 16, 22 4:53
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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But again my pov is that I’ve had 3 cars physically hit me in 23 years of riding on the road. Did you say that you’ve only had 1 “close call” and you don’t even actually know or anyone that has ever been hit.

I would love to be in that “riding utopia” that you seemingly have. I live in triangle of NC that is one of the fastest growing area of the country (can we move to like 13th on that list for a few years please) . Which means riding is only going to get more stranger and roads more trafficky. It really it home about 8 years ago when the head of the Dept of transportation was hit by a car and is now basically a vegetable. That was the first big “oh shit” moment that seemingly opened the faucet to more car v bike accidents.

Again with my job I see people actually changing their habits, and this isn’t just in my local. It’s happening in lots of places. We sell more Cervelo gravel bikes than we do Cervelo road bikes. That could be for a number of reasons (stock availability), but the point is 10 years ago Cervelo would have laughed at even the suggestion that would be how our sales would go.

Which again is why I’m debating the actual time line of when we think the majority of cars will be utilizing all this safety tech.

Brooks Doughtie
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 16, 22 5:47
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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I hope your stats stay the same, but unfortunately all it takes is that one story to shake up a person's views on biking. When I was starting university, my friend's mom needed a new kidney/liver (I don't remember). She got one from a kid our age and his nationality who was hit while riding his bike at night. That changed our carefree riding, and to this day I try not to ride in the dark.

Fact is most people do not ride at the crack of dawn. A lot of people commute and in Montreal where I live, we sadly have one or two deaths a year usually between bikes and trucks. A lot of people don't have the luxury of being able to get out on country roads without getting in their car or riding a good ways out. Considering more people live in the city around cars, I don't find it surprising many people are scared. Add to that this city's constant *surprise* bike lane painting/creation constantly angering local merchants - and you create this antagonism against cyclists that didn't necessarily exist before. The new bike lanes might encourage someone to start riding, but then you get the flip side of angry drivers who purposely park in the lane. I have sympathy for the disabled/elderly who are simply trying to get to the pharmacy, but now you have this bike lane taking all the parking spaces in front. Add to that this new, entitled feeling wobbly rider, and things just get ugly between both the cyclist, car and possibly pedestrians as the cyclist gets confused and might ride on the sidewalk. In a city like ours where cyclists are not out on the roads in winter (yes, some are, but much less than summer) we also have this cycle of drivers and cyclists forgetting how to co-exist and there's always this learning curve in springtime.

Our neighbor's daughter does cycling clinics at school, and at 10, she's great at leading and signaling. I love riding with her and my son as she teaches my son a lot of good habits he doesn't pick up with me. Her school is definitely not the norm, but I think education is the best way to improve sharing our roads. Technology can save some lives, but as others have pointed out, there are plenty of places in Europe and Asia where people aren't trying to run over you. People in those cars make a conscious decision to be more careful. I have cameras in my Subaru that can apply the brakes in my car to avoid collisions, but any idiot can turn it off with the press of a button. Even in the perfect situation where the car would know to stop, if the system is disabled, that car is going to run you over despite the driver and cyclist's arrogance that the car will save them.
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I am the bike manager for a tri shop that is one of the biggest cervelo dealers in the industry. I see the bike buying habits of people, I hear the riding habits of people as a coach. I have dealt first hand with people who have been hit, and STILL want a bike to ride after the accident. That just happened, and funny enough I put a fb post talking about it. on our business page (Inside Out Sports) I made no reference to fault, I simply said, we all need to have compassion when using roads. We get 10 Garmin varia radars and they'll alll be sold within 3 weeks. We as a bike dealer have to "forecast" the bike buying habits in order to pre order bikes, etc. I see it first hand that people are making changes to their habits....Again I'm not saying to get off the road.


I've personally been hit 2.5 times by cars (( say 0.5 cus that was a side glancing blow that didn't do much, but was from a distracted driver...it was while I was riding with a junior and thank God she wasn't involved).

I most certainly have changed my riding habits over the 23 years of riding. I will no longer ride alone anymore, and I ride with a varia + 2nd blinky light + front light. I only ride in groups and right now I dont think for a second I'm "unsafe" in those instances. But I cringe every time I or someone in the group gets dropped and has to ride some of the roads back to the shop "alone" (and no in the 25 years of shop rides we've never had a car v bike interaction...we've had cyclists crash themselves out on their own, but not by a car...we've had close calls, but no actual incidents).

The only place I'll ride alone is around the local basketball arena, we have an 1.2mi loop that is pretty much closed to traffic except the daily workers there, so I feel safe enough and don't consider that "on the roads" like I would riding out on country roads, etc. It's actually a great venue to ride cus it's got some hills and I find it to be great for strength riding.

So no I dont think it's a death trap out there. But I certainly do see first hand how bike v car has changed people's riding habits. ETA: I'm also in no way saying that we need to get off the roads. I'm actually wanting the opposite. I want it where it's SAFER for everyone to enjoy the roads. People keep saying the technology will be there....just a matter of WHEN.

Consider yourself lucky that you havent been hit or know of anyone. I would say that likely fits a very small minority- not been hit and not knowing someone who has.

Cary or Charlotte shop?

Cary shop route IMO is a terrible route on those roads towards Jordan lake then back on a weeknight. Fast and frequent traffic. I could see a person not in the group being in a tough spot on that one. 751 and Farrington Rd.
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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Cary You may think it's a terrible route, and I guess we could "debate" it (there are probaly 200 cyclist that ride in that area in the same time on the weeknights, whether it's "safe" or not). I'll just say that we as a store take on responsibility and we don't have your assessment, and neither does the popularity of the ride. In a year or 2 when the traffic from more neighborhoods is added (2 big developments have popped up this year along Lewter Shop), I'll agree with you (and I've said that to our staff about figuring out a new route).

ETA: But again it's all based on "risk". Your risk will be different from mine, and will be different from the 3rd guy. There is a group ride that rides in all downtown roads of Raleigh at 6pm, I'd never do that ride, as that's a "terrible route" (using your words) but people do.

Brooks Doughtie
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 17, 22 9:34
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [deechee] [ In reply to ]
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deechee wrote:
A lot of people don't have the luxury of being able to get out on country roads without getting in their car or riding a good ways out. Considering more people live in the city around cars, I don't find it surprising many people are scared.


When I started cycling I lived in the Los Angeles area... Whittier, Redondo Beach, Huntington Beach, Crestline, and Temecula. All were great IMO. I rode everywhere. And yet Bicycling voted LA the worst city for cycling in the country...??? https://www.theguardian.com/...s-dangers-bike-paths

The most dangerous place for cycling I lived was the "rural" island of Kauai. Narrow roads, dense traffic, shoulders always covered with debris and unusable, distracted tourists, and delivery trucks in a hurry. High speed very close passes happened several times every ride. Where I live now (Ruidoso, NM) is great... but most people think it's too dangerous here as well. They keep calling for "bike lanes" which are completely useless as they get covered with gravel, broken glass, nails, screws, etc.

You need to learn how to handle your bike and negotiate traffic, use bright lights front and rear so you can be seen, pick sensible routes and times... else I guess you *should* be scared. It's not as idiot proof as driving a car...
Last edited by: rruff: Aug 17, 22 12:16
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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My last close call was someone pulling out in front of me, from a side street on the right. I already had my hands on my brakes, as I saw the front of the car appear from behind a hedge row. I hit my brakes, and went down. He slowed a bit, as he continued to make a wide left turn, to avoid running me over, as I was finishing my wipe out. He looked up from his phone just long enough, to make momentary eye contact, before driving off. He didn’t even care enough so see if I was ok. 2 seconds earlier, and he would have hit me. 1 second earlier, and I would have slammed into him. Over 40 years of riding, and I’m done with public roads. AND I WAS IN A FREAKING BIKE LANE. I’ve come to the conclusion that no amount of gadgets, or fluorescent clothes, or defensive toughness will save you, when your number is up. As mentioned in a previous post, I’ve already had two friends murdered on their bikes, and more injured, and too many close calls myself. I don’t know how many more I-got-lucky’s I have left, before it’s more than scrapes, a little blood, and some new bike parts. I don’t bounce anymore, and I’m no longer willing to jeopardize our life savings on medical bills or funeral costs… because I think my skills can avoid the reaper. It happens so fast when it happens, and there is nothing you can do about it. It’s all cool, until it isn’t. I’ll train indoors, bike paths, or vacant areas, and race closed course. But putting myself out there in the murder zone, is over.

Athlinks / Strava
Last edited by: Dean T: Aug 17, 22 13:46
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Re: Two cyclists killed, three injured. Driver hits them head on. [Dean T] [ In reply to ]
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Little late in responding, Dean, but thank you very much. You're lucky to have places near you that feel safe. There are two neighborhoods around a half mile from my home that feel relatively safe for me, but only after morning work and school traffic has subsided. Fortunately, I'm retired, so I'm venturing out more than I used to. Your comment, and the long string of responses, shows this is a sensitive issue just about everywhere.
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