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Post deleted by spudone [ In reply to ]
Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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Of course, you are right, we MUST start somewhere. It's just gonna be slow slog. But a weapon buyback with a ban could accelerate the process massively.

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Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:

The biggest barrier to action is the NRA and their "slippery slope" argument. They refuse to find a middle ground because they consider any compromise a step towards a complete ban. Which is disingenuous considering that would require a Constitutional amendment that isn't going to happen.


As we all know, the American legislative process is really conducive to slippery slopes.
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Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [SWEDE63] [ In reply to ]
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I was poohooed and shot down by the "usual suspects" for this post 6 years a go.

Let's see if any opinions have changed with th hundreds of mass shootings since then.

>>

For your consideration.
I have been mulling this over for many years.
Obviously needs fleshing out and the devil would be in the details.

No solution as fast as the Australian solution can ever occur in the USA. From my observations, momentous societal changes occur by incremental legislation over decades. All the following could presume exemptions for trained licensed hunters and target/sport shooters with single shot weapons. ------------------------------------------

-'Frinstance -- what if we , oh say, started with offering manufacturers incentives to cut back on numbers produced (by carrot payments to make up for profits or stick measures such as civil liability for wrongful deaths ala big tobacco).

Follow that up with requirements for owner-only technology development ( ala the drawn out car safety requirements legislations).

Then gradually introduce legislation banning or restricting spare parts and high fire-rate parts. We already have California restrictions on hi-capacity magazines and armor piercing ammo, how about federal laws? -----------------

Then we could legislate requirements for registration of all weapon transfers, with the stick of fines, jail for multiple instances, and civil liability for wrongful deaths resulting from illegal transfers.

Maybe legislate that owners must have insurance to cover civil liability for misuse. -----

Possibly follow-up with gradual reduction quotas for production, which would cause scarcity and hence increased profits for manufacturers to make up for reduced volume.
This would also serve to make weapons increasingly valuable rarities to be not used, but rather locked up and protected from theft.

Standards for ammunition and reloading materials could be raised and enforced (by legislation or civil liability ), making cheap availability disappear over time. ------------------------------------------------------------------

Over 30 to 100 years, this plan would make weapons increasingly unattractive because ----------

1. no spare parts
2. to risky or expensive to own
3. ammo too expensive
4. guns too expensive to keep in non-secure situations, and too rare to freely transfer
5. old guns in the hands of idiots and firearms left unprotected will gradually become unserviceable and risky to fire
(?? anyone volunteering to fire a civil war or WW1 rifle/pistol and old ammo kept in the attic)


Yes, I know, a pipe dream, but we need to start somewhere. This plan is incremental and slowly promotes behavioral changes in the attitudes to guns in this country, as well as allowing no single politician or administration to take the political heat that a thunderclap change would involve.


Discuss.





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Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:


I just don’t understand how so many people in this country still think lax gun controls are a good thing for our society.


I live in a very conservative area art of the country and I cross these people daily.

I can tell you that in their minds it’s not lax gun controls they are focused on it’s the narrative of the government taking away their right to bear arms. They see it as a non-negotiable. If they give way to one law it will further become harder and harder and their right to the 2nd amendment will weaken.

These past 2 years has along made that thought worse with the way it was handled in their minds.

This is the problem that will take 1-2 generations to reverse that mindset and then get those in office to enact change.
Last edited by: 907Tri: May 29, 22 14:20
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Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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907Tri wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:


I just don’t understand how so many people in this country still think lax gun controls are a good thing for our society.


I live in a very conservative area art of the country and I cross these people daily.

I can tell you that in their minds it’s not lax gun controls they are focused on it’s the narrative of the government taking away their right to bear arms. They see it as a non-negotiable. If they give way to one law it will further become harder and harder and their right to the 2nd amendment will weaken.

These past 2 years has along made that thought worse with the way it was handled in their minds.

This is the problem that will take 1-2 generations to reverse that mindset and then get those in office to enact change.

Also, I know a lot of people who have purchased more guns because of recent events, particularly the calls for defunding police. Based in truth or not, these events scare a lot of people enough that they are willing to bring even more guns into our world.
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Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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907Tri wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:


I just don’t understand how so many people in this country still think lax gun controls are a good thing for our society.


I live in a very conservative area art of the country and I cross these people daily.

I can tell you that in their minds it’s not lax gun controls they are focused on it’s the narrative of the government taking away their right to bear arms. They see it as a non-negotiable. If they give way to one law it will further become harder and harder and their right to the 2nd amendment will weaken.

These past 2 years has along made that thought worse with the way it was handled in their minds.

This is the problem that will take 1-2 generations to reverse that mindset and then get those in office to enact change.

I wonder how many kids will die in those 1-2 generations.

Also I wonder what has happened in the past 2 years that makes those people think their right to bear arms is at risk. Seems to me that their rights have been affirmed at every turn.
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Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [EyeRunMD] [ In reply to ]
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EyeRunMD wrote:
907Tri wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:


I just don’t understand how so many people in this country still think lax gun controls are a good thing for our society.


I live in a very conservative area art of the country and I cross these people daily.

I can tell you that in their minds it’s not lax gun controls they are focused on it’s the narrative of the government taking away their right to bear arms. They see it as a non-negotiable. If they give way to one law it will further become harder and harder and their right to the 2nd amendment will weaken.

These past 2 years has along made that thought worse with the way it was handled in their minds.

This is the problem that will take 1-2 generations to reverse that mindset and then get those in office to enact change.


Also, I know a lot of people who have purchased more guns because of recent events, particularly the calls for defunding police. Based in truth or not, these events scare a lot of people enough that they are willing to bring even more guns into our world.

The gun industry loves to stoke those fears like "defunding police" and crime. They know it drives up sales. So of people fall for it and give them exactly what they want.
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Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [southpaw] [ In reply to ]
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Absolutely agree, but the NRA and right wing media makes them feel that is not the case.
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Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
EyeRunMD wrote:
907Tri wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:


I just don’t understand how so many people in this country still think lax gun controls are a good thing for our society.


I live in a very conservative area art of the country and I cross these people daily.

I can tell you that in their minds it’s not lax gun controls they are focused on it’s the narrative of the government taking away their right to bear arms. They see it as a non-negotiable. If they give way to one law it will further become harder and harder and their right to the 2nd amendment will weaken.

These past 2 years has along made that thought worse with the way it was handled in their minds.

This is the problem that will take 1-2 generations to reverse that mindset and then get those in office to enact change.


Also, I know a lot of people who have purchased more guns because of recent events, particularly the calls for defunding police. Based in truth or not, these events scare a lot of people enough that they are willing to bring even more guns into our world.


The gun industry loves to stoke those fears like "defunding police" and crime. They know it drives up sales. So of people fall for it and give them exactly what they want.

Not sure the gun industry can take all the blame for this part. With the George Floyd related riots, multiple cities calling for defunding police, and rising crime rates reported on the news nightly, it’s not unusual for people to be afraid
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Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [EyeRunMD] [ In reply to ]
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EyeRunMD wrote:
907Tri wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:


I just don’t understand how so many people in this country still think lax gun controls are a good thing for our society.


I live in a very conservative area art of the country and I cross these people daily.

I can tell you that in their minds it’s not lax gun controls they are focused on it’s the narrative of the government taking away their right to bear arms. They see it as a non-negotiable. If they give way to one law it will further become harder and harder and their right to the 2nd amendment will weaken.

These past 2 years has along made that thought worse with the way it was handled in their minds.

This is the problem that will take 1-2 generations to reverse that mindset and then get those in office to enact change.


Also, I know a lot of people who have purchased more guns because of recent events, particularly the calls for defunding police. Based in truth or not, these events scare a lot of people enough that they are willing to bring even more guns into our world.

Every single time a Dem is elected president, gun sales increase. I personally know at least 50 guys who went out and bought guns before Obama took office because he was going to take their guns.

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Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [EyeRunMD] [ In reply to ]
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EyeRunMD wrote:
chaparral wrote:
EyeRunMD wrote:
907Tri wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:


I just don’t understand how so many people in this country still think lax gun controls are a good thing for our society.


I live in a very conservative area art of the country and I cross these people daily.

I can tell you that in their minds it’s not lax gun controls they are focused on it’s the narrative of the government taking away their right to bear arms. They see it as a non-negotiable. If they give way to one law it will further become harder and harder and their right to the 2nd amendment will weaken.

These past 2 years has along made that thought worse with the way it was handled in their minds.

This is the problem that will take 1-2 generations to reverse that mindset and then get those in office to enact change.


Also, I know a lot of people who have purchased more guns because of recent events, particularly the calls for defunding police. Based in truth or not, these events scare a lot of people enough that they are willing to bring even more guns into our world.


The gun industry loves to stoke those fears like "defunding police" and crime. They know it drives up sales. So of people fall for it and give them exactly what they want.


Not sure the gun industry can take all the blame for this part. With the George Floyd related riots, multiple cities calling for defunding police, and rising crime rates reported on the news nightly, it’s not unusual for people to be afraid


But what cities have actually "defunded" the police? How much have we heard about "defund" the police? The difference between those two questions shows what I am talking about.

Also, what crime specifically went up? It was gun violence! Guess what also increased at the same time? Gun purchases. It is a self licking ice cream cone for gun manufactures. They sell more guns, which causes more crimes, which causes more sales. They have every incentive to keep crime rates up.
Last edited by: chaparral: May 30, 22 12:36
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Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
EyeRunMD wrote:
chaparral wrote:
EyeRunMD wrote:
907Tri wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:


I just don’t understand how so many people in this country still think lax gun controls are a good thing for our society.


I live in a very conservative area art of the country and I cross these people daily.

I can tell you that in their minds it’s not lax gun controls they are focused on it’s the narrative of the government taking away their right to bear arms. They see it as a non-negotiable. If they give way to one law it will further become harder and harder and their right to the 2nd amendment will weaken.

These past 2 years has along made that thought worse with the way it was handled in their minds.

This is the problem that will take 1-2 generations to reverse that mindset and then get those in office to enact change.


Also, I know a lot of people who have purchased more guns because of recent events, particularly the calls for defunding police. Based in truth or not, these events scare a lot of people enough that they are willing to bring even more guns into our world.


The gun industry loves to stoke those fears like "defunding police" and crime. They know it drives up sales. So of people fall for it and give them exactly what they want.


Not sure the gun industry can take all the blame for this part. With the George Floyd related riots, multiple cities calling for defunding police, and rising crime rates reported on the news nightly, it’s not unusual for people to be afraid


But what cities have actually "defunded" the police? How much have we heard about "defund" the police? The difference between those two questions shows what I am talking about.

Also, what crime specifically went up? It was gun violence! Guess what also increased at the same time? Gun purchases. It is a self licking ice cream cone for gun manufactures. They sell more guns, which causes more crimes, which causes more sales. They have every incentive to keep crime rates up.


It doesn’t really matter if the police were defunded or not. Just the intense discussion was enough to to incentivize people to go out and purchase guns. The rioting was all over the news so it helped put gasoline on people’s fears about a possible future need to defend themselves. After watching the chaos on tv, it made me worry about pandemonium as well. Same with the January 6th riots. It looked like the police were becoming less and less effective with violent mobs.

And most of the increased crime was in areas where there was already high crime, with criminals being the ones causing death (ie, drive by shootings). I don’t believe any new gun laws will deter that action, by gang bangers
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Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [Thom] [ In reply to ]
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Thom wrote:
Cars also require training and a license to use. There is regular testing required to ensure people are competent enough to use them. Cars need to be registered with the government. If you handle a car irresponsibly, you will eventually be stripped of your right to use it .

If it's an honest comparison, the right should support regulating guns at least as much as we do cars.

No they don't. Cars only require training and license (and insurance for that matter) to use on public roads. Folks bringing up this argument always seems to overlook this critical nuance.

Anyone of any age is allowed to possess and drive whatever car they desire on their own private property without training, license, or insurance.
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Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [dbarron] [ In reply to ]
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dbarron wrote:
Thom wrote:
Cars also require training and a license to use. There is regular testing required to ensure people are competent enough to use them. Cars need to be registered with the government. If you handle a car irresponsibly, you will eventually be stripped of your right to use it .

If it's an honest comparison, the right should support regulating guns at least as much as we do cars.


No they don't. Cars only require training and license (and insurance for that matter) to use on public roads. Folks bringing up this argument always seems to overlook this critical nuance.

Anyone of any age is allowed to possess and drive whatever car they desire on their own private property without training, license, or insurance.

Do you think you won the internet today with that comment? You must think you’re very clever.
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Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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While we date this, another mass shooting happened, and while I was at a BBQ today section of the town I was in was locked down due to an active shooter.

Murica.
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Re: Mass Shootings - What will it take to change the law? [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
dbarron wrote:
Thom wrote:
Cars also require training and a license to use. There is regular testing required to ensure people are competent enough to use them. Cars need to be registered with the government. If you handle a car irresponsibly, you will eventually be stripped of your right to use it .

If it's an honest comparison, the right should support regulating guns at least as much as we do cars.


No they don't. Cars only require training and license (and insurance for that matter) to use on public roads. Folks bringing up this argument always seems to overlook this critical nuance.

Anyone of any age is allowed to possess and drive whatever car they desire on their own private property without training, license, or insurance.


Do you think you won the internet today with that comment? You must think you’re very clever.

Nope. Just pointing out that inherent differences in those types of laws, and why the original comparison is nonsense.
If we want to look for better metaphors, let’s look at things that regulate privately owned items on private property. Housing codes, for instance, might be a better exemplar to use for relevant comparisons.
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