In my mind, swimming is entirely about efficiency (or economy, whatever one wishes to call it).

"In my mind, swimming is entirely about efficiency "

Ditto.

You can put in volume on the bike or the run and get faster but volume in swimming is much less significant. It's all about technique. Something that I'm still struggling with.

see it this way: you a triathlete, low body fat, very good aerobic engine, strong upper body, tireless legs (I am guessing that applies to many) and say a 22' for 1500m LC (which is not very fast)...

Her, 14yo, skinny, skinny arms, good aerobic engine, very efficient swimmer and probably a 17' for 1500m LC..

btw, your approach is very close to mine...started with a 1h16' IM, and now swim 53' (although in the pool I will swim 49' but I am not too good open water swimmer)...knowing yourself is the best way to get there!

I'm 52 and a pretty decent swimmer, but I'm altering my stroke and technique. I'm down to 13-14 strokes (from 18) per 25yd. I'm still very mechanical, but I can already see the light at the end of the tunnel.

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Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

I don't agree with that statement. Swimming is primarily about efficiency, but don't discount swimming muscular endurance completely. I have a strong swimming background. I've jumped in the pool after taking years off and could still swim very efficiently, but after about 200 yards straight, my muscles would be burning. If I had to swim a straight 500 vs. someone that was less efficient but was in better swimming shape, it may have turned out to be a close race.

To be a good swimmer, I think you really need to have both. Efficiency is critical, but you'll need muscular endurance if you're going to convert that efficient stroke into a good swim time. I've seen plenty of people who just tool around in the pool doing drills and what not that can't convert that into a good swim time on race day because they just don't have the endurance.

I'm an advocate of concentrating on your stroke efficiency during warm-ups and during drill sets, and then trying and hold that form during your aerobic sets. Just my $0.02.

Agreeing with you there. I think a lot of triathletes get caught up in the idea of perfect swimming technique, and perfect is the enemy of good enough. It boggles that some triathlete will talk about getting out of the water because their stroke was feeling funny or falling apart that day, and they'll get a lot of "Dude, you did the right thing" confirmations.

So you get people who have pretty pretty strokes they never stress test, never learn what if feels like to have to hold everything together in very less than perfect conditions. And then you go to a mass start open water race add in some waves or currents, and that's as far from perfect condiitions as you're going to get. (well unless you like currents and/or waves, in which case it's great fun)

So do the heavy strokework until you feel like you're 80% of where you want to be with it. For the last 20% of your optimal stroke and optimal technique, you don't know what that's going to be until you start stress testing it, and figuring out what's really important when you're dead tired, and struggling to get from point A to point B. Yes, the idea is to come out of the water fresh and relatively rested, but some times that's just not going to happen and you have to be prepared for it. (If there are any other northern Gulf Coast folks reading, I'm thinking of the swim at Pelican Point sprint last year)

I'm not at all a great person but I have made some big strides in swimming in the past six months. Based on my observations I equate swim technique to bike fit:

Good bike fit is critical but good bike fit alone won't make you fast. You still have to pedal and put in the miles.

Good swim technique is critical but you still have to put in the pool time. Perfect technique alone won't get you to the beach at the top of your age group. Fitness alone won't get you to the beach at the top of your age group. You need both.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I agree, but one difference.

It is possible to go fast on a poorly fitted bike. remember Sean Kelly.

You cannot swim fast without good technique.

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Good point about Kelly. I'm impressed by your ecclectic knowledge of the sport. You must not have a life either.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Though you can do surprisingly okay with pretty terrible swim technique. Wish I still had some video of my high school freestyle because I managed to have some decent midlevel success with an extremely ugly stoke.

Jill, I don't normally post an "I agree" post or a "back-pat" post ... BUT, I agree 100% with what you are saying.

In many sports, athletes stop what they're doing if they feel technique is not perfect (what is perfect?). There comes a point where the pursuit of perfect technique will hold you back in terms of strength, endurnace, etc. It applies to pitching/batting technique, powerlifting/strength training, football, tennis, golf, etc ... even swimming.

I agree with your mindset that when it comes to technique "good enough + great endurance is better than perfect technique and inferior endurance". Sometimes it seems that people are under the impression that perfect technique "swims itself".

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

did the stroke look ugly under water as well?
because I can find some olympic medalists with ugly strokes, but under water it's very efficient...
Brooke Bennett and her 2zillions strokes per 50,
Michael Straight Arm Klim, Janet Evans,
also I think it was Tom Malchow that does not really have a very nice fly to watch (like bent arms, short strokes, but boy he is pushing some water under water!) etc...

it's like Paula Radcliffe it looks ugly, but if you focus on her foot strike, it's super efficient.

Water is 8 times denser than air if I remember my physics correctly. W/out good technique your not getting to the front of the pack even w/ a 8mm wetsuit. Combine that with consistent swimming and a decent amount of volume to increase your ability to swim fast for long periods of time and you can get out with that front pack or even in front of it. Combine all the above with some swimming brains such as being able to draft, knowing how to move someone out of the way around turns or in a pack, knowing where to swim on someone's side to slow them and make them work harder while keeping you in a bit of the draft, knowing how to make and evade contact in packs and you can be way out in front, or with others and they will be much more tired than you.

All this swimming talk might just get me back in the pool after a 6.5yr swimming break!

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Way back when, Anders Holmertz was the WR holder for the 400 free, wickedly fast. He also swam with a huge limp. Oh yeah and he chain smoked. You can do a lot of things wrong and still come out ahead.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Hey Jason...I'm the guy who bought your GT Vengeance waaaaay back, then promptly broke it on its maiden voyage. I thought your name looked familiar...small world, huh?

Don't see Sean Kelly's name on a triathlon forum very often. The guy has an almost mythical status in my viewpoint...for some reason I suspect he and Dave Scott would hit it off really well (another guy who had some awkward movements). Both seem to be the quiet, stoic, tough-guy types.

Back on topic...there are a lot of world class swimmers who possess some interesting traits in their strokes, and are successful despite of it. For that reason, while it's interesting to look at world class swimmers, IMHO they do not have a monopoly of stroke technique.

Straight arm recovery is easier on your shoulder joints than the high elbow recovery, in addition it CAN potential add forward momentum during the non-peak portion of the freestyle stroke cycle. Show most physical therapists the movement of your shoulder during a high elbow recovery and they will cringe.

Dave

800 times as dense. Unlike biking, where aerodynamic efficiency is important, but nowhere near as important as power and endurance, and even less like running where technique helps, endurance is critical and aerodynamics is unimportant; in swimming, a good technical swimmer with mediocre enurance can whip a mediocre swimmer with great endurance.

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Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Efficiency is very important in swimming... however, efficiency is a strange creature when it comes to swimming. I have actually had instances where minimizing my most efficient form to accomdate the situation at hand in order to be efficient. This may seem a bit strange, but it is true. Examples such as ...When you are using wetsuits... or, when waves are breaking awkward... or, when I want to draft behind a fast biker (such as in a draft legal race - rare but has happened). ... or, when the pack you end doesn't want to break out, but another swim back goes by... I find myself constantly fitting the most efficient swimming technique to match the situation. And, sometimes that means actually not matching what in a pool would be the most efficient swimming method. There are various degrees of efficiency that proves to be useful when open water swims with large groups of people are involved.

Efficient swimming (and, that tends to vary) is important to having a good bike. Inefficiency in swimming has a tendancy to be much more problematic the longer the triathlon. Yes... (IMHO) efficiency is very important and is more important the longer the course. It is just that efficiency is a concept base on experience. It takes experience to determine what is most efficient for the conditions at hand.

FWIW Joe Moya

Swimming's a balance between, and sometimes a fight between physics and physiology.

From a physics standpoint, best way to get from point A to point B in the water is to dolphin kick. Arm use somewhat optional.

But physiology, the body just can't sustain a fly kick for long without fatigue. Look at the top swimmers- 100s they underwater dolphin kick to the legal limit, but for longer distances they don't.

And when you start getting into the fine details of it, everyone is slightly different, so everyone's best freestyle form will be slightly different. Height is a factor for optimal stroke length and optimal cadence. No surprise there.

And there are other factors which you might not necessarily think of. US Swimming has a Brazilian study in its tech section talking about stroke lengths and cadence among that country's elite male swimmers. They found there that swimmers with thick torsos had higher stroke rates and shorter distance per stroke than similar height thinner torso swimmers.

Extrapolate that data, and it might suggest than women (generally bigger chests and hips than same height men) are better off aiming for a higher candence and lower distance per stroke than men.

Lots of other little tweaks to swimming that are the last 20% of getting there, unique to your body, and you'll only find when you start stress testing your stroke.

You must be thinking of someone else, I've never owned a Vengeance. I had a Cervelo P2 for a few years, which I sold to a friend of mine. That bike is still ticking along quite happily.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Greg,

You have hit on the number one aspect of swimming that I teach in every class. Proper Technique leads to Efficiency and that is 90% of being a excellent swimmer.

Generally, all the propulsion swim techniques being taught around the country have little to do with the "pull" phase of your freestyle stroke but actually focus on body roll, timing of hip rotation and hand/arm entry. In the words of NYC Swim coach Doug Stern " the pull takes care of itself". Ironically, when I go to the pool I watch endless age groupers hammering paddles until their terrible technique becomes permanent and their shoulders fail. Such a waste...but good future business for me (after they visit a good surgeon).

Contrary to some of the other posts I've read on the topic, putting in lots of meters/time does not translate to swimming faster or more efficient. My triathlete friends continue to pile up significant (40K/week) yards in the quest to improve their swimming. To a man, they are gristled water warriors with permanent eye bruises from their goggles. They've all attended TI and as soon as they returned, didn't do another drill since. Best IM swim for the group is a sad 1:20. This past season I put in 14.5K meters total in the pool the two weeks leading up to IM Fl. My swim time was just under an hour....and by the way, I weight 235lbs. It's technique baby!

Another example was W. German Michael Gross "The Albatross" who owned the 200Meter freestyle World Record for quite some time. He was a notorious dry land trainer who put in a fraction of the yards of his competitors. When he did swim, his workouts were drill oriented. Interval drills to the point where his race stroke looked like a catch-up drill. Running more than cycling will build the needed cardio to swim strong.

Bottom line, most triathletes are in excellent shape and should focus on fewer hard sets and do more drill work. My advice to any triathlete who's interested. Stop your swim workout the moment your coach notices your stoke falling apart. At that point, go back to drill sets for the rest of the day.



-WineTrader

I agree, I'm learning to rotate my hips better, with a semi-(so-called) catch-up. It's amazing. When I'm doing it right, the rotation pulls my arm through. My catch needs work, but swimming with your hips for propulsion is a real eye opener.

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Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Well, I didn't say one didn't need to be able to swing their arms through -- but I got in the pool after 25 years of not swimming a single lap and 4 weeks later finished 2nd in my AG in a half IM swim. What did I do for 4 weeks? Drills. Only drills. The arm muscles came around in the second week, and I did nothing but 100 meter drills.

My swimming background from 25 years previous? Two summers of neighborhood swim team at ages 12-13. But, I always had good form.