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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
mattsurf wrote:
SBRcanuck wrote:
mattsurf wrote:
....far more people would have the chance to race at Kona every year, it would still sell out, ...


Not that it matters, but I don't think this would be the case, very expensive to travel to, generally regarded as not a great course, no? The draw to it is the history.


So your aguement, which I wouldn't disagree with, is the in order to attract people to come to Kona, you need to offer both the lure of a World Championship AND to feel a part of triathlon history.

I think that it's worth experimenting, If Kona can survive / sell out based on its history AND a new World Championship event can be created, which also earns revenue from athletes, but also from medla, then it could be a massive win for Ironman.

I think that the Collins Cup has also shown that experimenting with a different format makes sense from a media perspective. Moving a different location would also be an opportunity to do something radical and different (I have no idea what though)


i wrote my thoughts on the front page.

I totally agree with Dan's take on this. As a matter of fact I think that even if you move the WC around you would still have far more demand than spots for Ironman Kona. As a matter of fact, I bet you could establish a time by age-group qualifying construct for IM Kona just like they do for the Boston Marathon and you would have two options for fast people: the WC if you qualified for a spot (harder to do) or Kona if you qualified by time (theoretically easier to do). This keeps the quality of the field high at both races and gives the more "mere mortal" of us an opportunity to race in Kona with a quality field.

More importantly this construct would make IM a heck of a lot more money and increase IM's international reach. I would not be shocked if this is the direction IM moves to, it just makes too much sense logistically and financially. Now, as to what to do with the current Legacy qualifiers, that is hard. My guess is that they give them the choice to race WC in a different location or to race IM Kona. After that the Legacy program will most likely be phased out. Get ready everybody, this is happening!

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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [Lock_N_Load] [ In reply to ]
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Lock_N_Load wrote:
Slowman wrote:
mattsurf wrote:
SBRcanuck wrote:
mattsurf wrote:
....far more people would have the chance to race at Kona every year, it would still sell out, ...


Not that it matters, but I don't think this would be the case, very expensive to travel to, generally regarded as not a great course, no? The draw to it is the history.


So your aguement, which I wouldn't disagree with, is the in order to attract people to come to Kona, you need to offer both the lure of a World Championship AND to feel a part of triathlon history.

I think that it's worth experimenting, If Kona can survive / sell out based on its history AND a new World Championship event can be created, which also earns revenue from athletes, but also from medla, then it could be a massive win for Ironman.

I think that the Collins Cup has also shown that experimenting with a different format makes sense from a media perspective. Moving a different location would also be an opportunity to do something radical and different (I have no idea what though)


i wrote my thoughts on the front page.


I totally agree with Dan's take on this. As a matter of fact I think that even if you move the WC around you would still have far more demand than spots for Ironman Kona. As a matter of fact, I bet you could establish a time by age-group qualifying construct for IM Kona just like they do for the Boston Marathon and you would have two options for fast people: the WC if you qualified for a spot (harder to do) or Kona if you qualified by time (theoretically easier to do). This keeps the quality of the field high at both races and gives the more "mere mortal" of us an opportunity to race in Kona with a quality field.

More importantly this construct would make IM a heck of a lot more money and increase IM's international reach. I would not be shocked if this is the direction IM moves to, it just makes too much sense logistically and financially. Now, as to what to do with the current Legacy qualifiers, that is hard. My guess is that they give them the choice to race WC in a different location or to race IM Kona. After that the Legacy program will most likely be phased out. Get ready everybody, this is happening!

The Boston approach is exactly how I would handle Kona (maybe keep it in the WC rotation). Qualifying for Boston was even better than running the race. It was cool and all but is doesn't make my top marathons, both from a location and experience perspective.
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [Lock_N_Load] [ In reply to ]
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Agree 100%. I've KQ'd 11 times. I've always viewed Kona as Boston, Wimbledon, the Masters, not the Super Bowl. When I started triathlon in 1999, other athletes never talked about the "World Championships" as the ne plus ultra in our sport; they talked about going to Kona. When discussing our sport with non-triathletes, they never asked "Have you done the World Championships?" It's always, "Have you done the one in Hawaii?" With 42 years invested in that brand, it would be easy for WTC to retain its allure, without the WC. moniker. Remember, when the IM started in Hawaii, it was not a WC. It was simply The Ironman. Then, others appeared - Penticton, Taupo, Roth, Sonoma. Then qualification was necessary. When did WTC start calling Kona the WC? Anybody know? Point is, "Kona" preceded "WC", and will survive its departure, IMO, as a pinnacle in our sport.
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [trusam1] [ In reply to ]
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I would agree with this. I have raced Kona/WC (once, got my ass handed to me) and want to race the course again. If its a WC's great, I'll do it there, if its not, I'd still want to go back and give it another go. But for sure I'd continue to train and try and qualify for many WC's outside of it being in Kona... I'm not one to go back to a race venue again and again and again....

________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [trusam1] [ In reply to ]
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Apparently it has been the “World Championship” for almost as long as it was in Kailua-Kona.

I checked my 1983 finishers “paperweight” and 1985 medal and both said World Championship.

I agree though, people equate Ironman and Hawaii, asking “have you done the race in Hawaii, not the WC. However, I would support moving the WC to other venues, like is done with the 70.3. To keep the mystic of Kailua-Kona, maybe make that the Pro Championship and fill the field with legacy athletes and the first three in each AG from the WC event (wherever that is) with no roll down. Just my thoughts.
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I think a good compromise solution would be to host Kona as a WC every year, but have it alternate men or women only, with the opposite sex doing a WC at a rotating venue.

That way you always have a chance to qualify for Kona, it becomes far less crowded in the town and in the race itself, it becomes more international (and fair), and it legitimizes the World Championship aspect without undoing the legacy of Kona.

Just my $0.02.
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [Kickr] [ In reply to ]
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I am not too sure it is common knowledge anymore that Ironman started out as a bar bet. I also don't think that most people understand that Ironman is a private held company that hosts it's own "World Championship" for it's own product. It is sanctioned by their own corporation and not an outside governing body.
When it started as a "World Championship Event" there were no international governing bodies for triathlon sport. Their "World Championship" status was about as valid as my own backyard cow chip kicking contest or the "Wednesday Worlds" bike race held in every cycling community.
Triathlon is sort of an odd egg. Certainly Sports Illustrated and Wide World of Sports put a funky little oddball sport Ironman on the map and it has grown into a huge worldwide series of privately owned events. I am not too sure where Ironman World Championship fits into the sports world. It is very unlike cycling, swimming, running, gymnastics, or dozens of other sports that have a national or world governing body. (like ITU] It is more like MLB that has a "World Series" of a sport only played in a private league in two countries.
Since it is a privately owned brand event, what we think and say is not really relevant as they can call their own branded event whatever they want and hold their Championships where ever they want without anyone but their own owners input. Ironman has been a huge part of my life for 40 years as a competitor, volunteer and fan, but I still haven't figured out what exactly what it is. But I am working on it. Interesting thread.
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [G-man] [ In reply to ]
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I guess the thread is obsolete because the USA opens up in november?
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
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longtrousers wrote:
I guess the thread is obsolete because the USA opens up in november?

You must be confused.
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [mkq] [ In reply to ]
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mkq wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
I guess the thread is obsolete because the USA opens up in november?

You must be confused.

Messick said he's considering other venues for the WC because he could not plan due to the incertainty when the governing bodies were going to decide something.
But ok he could find other reasons to rotate, but that would be new then.
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [trusam1] [ In reply to ]
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trusam1 wrote:
Agree 100%. I've KQ'd 11 times. I've always viewed Kona as Boston, Wimbledon, the Masters, not the Super Bowl. When I started triathlon in 1999, other athletes never talked about the "World Championships" as the ne plus ultra in our sport; they talked about going to Kona. When discussing our sport with non-triathletes, they never asked "Have you done the World Championships?" It's always, "Have you done the one in Hawaii?" With 42 years invested in that brand, it would be easy for WTC to retain its allure, without the WC. moniker. Remember, when the IM started in Hawaii, it was not a WC. It was simply The Ironman. Then, others appeared - Penticton, Taupo, Roth, Sonoma. Then qualification was necessary. When did WTC start calling Kona the WC? Anybody know? Point is, "Kona" preceded "WC", and will survive its departure, IMO, as a pinnacle in our sport.

You make quite a reasonable point, but there's a bit of revision of history in the latter portion of your post.
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [satanellus] [ In reply to ]
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can not be bother reading the pages of why & why not

but just glad i went to Kona while it was earned by Qualification

mass start & draft fest ;-)
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [stivrunning] [ In reply to ]
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I´ve raced in Kona 6 times (from 2008 to 2018) and already QF in Wisconsin 2019 (so waiting for a sollution after 24 months without racin Ironman Distance)

My 50 cents. I dont´care nothing but zero about World Championship, but close to 100 about racing in Kona, wich is my first memory in triathlon. Things happen, and maybe there won´t be a WC Ironman in Kona, but I´ll try to be in the first Ironman Race that Kailua will held in the future.
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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A 2 day event will help clear the slot backlog.

Last I checked Kona didn't want 2 days

___________________________________________
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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [realAB] [ In reply to ]
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I am all about racing in Kona, I am not interested in racing St George! Great venue for a qualifier, but there is no way you are going to feel the excitement to race there like you would for Kona, and good luck trying to get you family excited about going. My guess management needs to squeeze in a WC race somewhere due to the backlog, but ultimately the race will stay in Hawaii. I just hope they give us the choice to defer if they choose a location other than Hawaii.
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [ In reply to ]
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No disrespect to Dan, but Fred Doucette's front page article nailed it. :)
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
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longtrousers wrote:
mkq wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
I guess the thread is obsolete because the USA opens up in november?


You must be confused.


Messick said he's considering other venues for the WC because he could not plan due to the incertainty when the governing bodies were going to decide something.
But ok he could find other reasons to rotate, but that would be new then.


I understand now what you mean with "confused": entrance to the USA is another thing as consent of the Hawaiian governing bodies to the IM.
But at least the opening of the mainland is a first step.
Last edited by: longtrousers: Sep 23, 21 1:56
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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Unless I'm missing something, most of the arguments for Kona boil down to:
  • Nostalgia: connection to the sport's roots, earliest memories, etc. You want to be on the same roads as "x athlete when he/she did Y," or connect to the earliest parts of the sport, where it all began.
  • It's the Superbowl: It is currently the biggest event in long course triathlon and part of what draws people/sponsors/athletes to our sport. If you move it somewhere else, you might risk splitting the WC from the history aspect and having 2 events, neither of which do this independently. (you kill the goose that lays the golden eggs)


To this, I argue that:
  • Some of us were not into the sport when it was starting. I'm 40, been in the sport for ~7 years, and my 'Kona consciousness' really started when Jacobs/Cave won. This isn't to say that I don't care about the what happened before or whatever (I've gone back and watched all the old NBC specials), but if you're looking to grow the sport, it can't all be about the Ironwar. Sometimes you can make new "sport memories" in new locations - from the 70.3 WC think Iden showing up with a road bike in Nice and outrunning Brownlee, or the swimmers putting Kienle under pressure at Tremblant.
  • Sometimes the Superbowl sucks. The Tour de France may what draws eyeballs to cycling, but if you ask any cycling fan what race is their favourite, it almost never is the Tour. In fact, De Ronde beats out the Tour in terms of 1 day viewership. Sure, its a risk to move the big show, but you just might end up with more exciting race calendar (and a bigger sport!) as a result.
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
but if you ask any cycling fan what race is their favourite, it almost never is the Tour. In fact, De Ronde beats out the Tour in terms of 1 day viewership.

When they run De Ronde anywhere besides East/West Flanders, get back to us.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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If you'll recall, there were protests when they moved the finish from Meerbeke to Oudenaarde - with both fans and cyclists alike calling it the death of the race and lamenting the new parcours. While it took a year or three for the new parcours to find its groove, you could argue that it's made the race better.




https://www.velonews.com/news/opinion-new-flanders-route-is-blasphemous/
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/belgians-mourn-decapitated-tour-of-flanders/
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I think the marathon majors have an interesting model that could be applied. You make some of the various IM locations around the world "the majors" with time based qualification standards. These can be the classic courses with history: Lanzarote, Lake Placid, Kona etc.

Each year one of these is deemed to be the WC. For the marathon majors, it's currently London - the hardest of the majors to get into if you're not based in the UK.

Creates a few interesting layers of goals to chase depending on what your cup of tea is. Complete all the majors, just do Kona, do the WC.

The idea that the WC needs to be tied to Kona because of its rich history is kinda true, but there are also examples where this isn't the case and there's a rich history to the race. The cycling World Championships is a good example. The location and course is just as much part of the lore of the event as the battles that took place.

I for one, am open and kinda like the idea of rotating the WC. Might get me entering more often. I've done Kona once, will do it once more (when it's finally rescheduled) and maybe one more time after that. But I'll probably do more 70.3s because its a good excuse for picking where in the world I want to travel to.
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [brusche] [ In reply to ]
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How competitive is this race compared to Kona?

I didn’t even know this was a race that has been going on for years and took place this past weekend until I saw Lucy’s YouTube video
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123 wrote:
How competitive is this race compared to Kona?
I didn’t even know this was a race that has been going on for years and took place this past weekend until I saw Lucy’s YouTube video
If you're asking about the London Marathon its first iteration was in 1981. In 2019 there were about 42,000 starters.
In 2021 (similar numbers in pre-pandemic 2019) about 130 male athletes went sub-2:30 (of which 21 elite) and 44 women went sub-2:50 of which 20 elite.
Last October, all the elite women went under 2:40 and LCB ran 2:48 - 10th 'mass start' woman: a great result given lack of training and only 2 weeks after her St George 70.3 mistress class. Her next competitive run was last Sunday.
Please offer us a few metrics you have thought about to help us answer the "How competitive is this race compared to Kona?" question.
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Re: Ironman World Championship 2022 Location and beyond [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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^I think he's referencing WT's Long distance champs that she just won (that was her most recent YT video).

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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