It’s so hard to say from an observers POV. Let’s hypothesize that she would have competed, and received poor scores, and later on stated she wasn’t in the right head space. She would have been critiqued for not allowing an alternate, and then the team earning medals.
I don’t think we as observers have any right to tell athletes to perform. Regardless off “national team” status or not.
The one thing I will say is that I haven’t heard a single one of her teammates say she failed them.

In an interview with Caeleb Dressel, he said that all athletes deal with stress in their own way and the only person that should comment on Simone Biles' action is Simone herself. Smart dude.

American swimmer Caeleb Dressel knew he’d be under pressure to win multiple gold medals at these Games, thus coronating him as the heir to Michael Phelps. He didn’t expect it to be so hard to handle under the spotlight. After winning the first individual gold medal of his career in the men’s 100-meter freestyle on Thursday, he broke down in tears. He said his head swirled with self-doubt ahead of Saturday’s final session, during which he raced three times and set a world record in the 100 butterfly en route to winning gold.

“This sport was a lot more fun when no one knew my name, to be honest,” said Dressel.

Swimmer Erica Sullivan:

“There was a point in 2018 when I started getting psychological help for my mental issues,” she said. “At the end of the day, so little people understand the struggles of an elite athlete, let alone an athlete like Simone Biles…I think people fail to recognize that she is also a human being.”

Of the U.S. team’s 764 athletes, including alternates, roughly one in five reported experiencing mental-health issues including anxiety, depression, drug or alcohol abuse or an eating disorder in the team’s very first pre-Games mental-health survey, according the U.S. Olympic & Paralympic Committee. Six reported suicidal ideation.

It can also be taxing on athletes in lower-profile sports whose only chance for global exposure comes every four years at the Games, said Todd Herman, a performance psychologist who consults with more than 100 Olympians.

“Sport for them is their identity. It’s what they’ve been doing since [age] 7 or 8,” he said. “And if I can’t compete at my best at this Olympics then what am I good for? That was exactly what someone said to me last night,” said Herman. He’s based in the U.S., but has been talking by phone with coaches and athletes in Japan asking for help with navigating the stress of these pandemic Games.

Full article, likely paywalled: https://www.wsj.com/...mp;mod=djemMTIPOFF_h

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Like it or not, being famous comes with commentary from fans. In Biles case most reaction has been positive but it's naive to expect zero negative comments.

Would it be a gross over-simplification to say that most of the people who agree with Simone's decision are those who have first- or second-hand experience with anxiety or depression or other issues and are therefore more empathetic?

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Maybe in general. But not for me - I'm a dude with a perhaps a dangerous level of lack of understanding of mental health issues. Stoic in this sort of stuff. I'm trying to be more understanding of it - and logically I am. But at a gut level it's new to me.

Rather I feel empathy because of personal experience with racism and observing the high standards Black women in the US face. They get piled on so much, so that makes me care a bit more on this issue.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

I'll bet that's certainly true.

I myself used to believe that depression and anxiety was only a state of mind that weak-minded people without self-discipline or grit could not overcome. After all, I felt I had endured countless hardships in my life, and I was tough enough to overcome them - you should be too!

Then I met my spouse, who is a top-performing Stanford-trained physician, top of her medical/residency school class, etc. Pretty much the highest level of performance you can get requiring maximal grit/toughness/stamina, as the medical field pretty much demanded it from her.

She ran into a phase of organic depression, and I was frankly shocked and literally could not comprehend what was going on whatsoever, as it defied all my understanding of what I felt was something I understood (depression). It had nothing to do with weakness, or lack of grit, and was utterly incapacitating (like can't even get out of bed to function.) I clearly was 100% completely wrong in my self-assessment of mental illness, and completely ignored the reality that organic illness can strike even healthy, high achieving people, and have literally nothing to do with their toughness, grit, or ability.

She fortunately overcame this completely, but only after over a year of intensive therapy, over which I came to know and respect mental illness from a much more accurate AND compassionate perspective. My viewpoint about it has done a 180 compared to my prior self.

I will also add, though, that I'm also 100% understanding of those that still feel depression is just a 'weak state of mind' and that you can 'grit your way through it'. It's simply near-impossible to fathom this reality of the situation unless you are confronted with it head-on either by yourself or someone you care deeply about. I could tell you all day about the facts of depression, and it wouldn't change your mind one bit about it, as it didn't change mine. If it weren't for my wife's experience, I guarantee 100% that i'd be 'that guy' that has low/no sympathy for people with depression or other mental illnesses. Doesn't mean that I'm a bad person, it's just that hard to wrap your head around without the requisite experience.

Suffice to say, I have the utmost respect, admiration, and sympathy for Simone Biles, who has to deal with it very publicly, and is forced the be the face of mental illness, likely at a time she least wants to be it.

and surely in america, of all places, freedom to comment is baked right into the system. you certainly don't have to like what i say, and aren't even required to listen, but i definitely have the right to say something.

i think ultimately i'd prefer to live in a world with more speech rather than less, and in this thread alone i think there have been a lot of comments from a variety of useful perspectives: from the POV of race, gender, age, elite sport, gymnastics, fans, etc. where people have said assholish things i think they've mostly been called assholes, but otherwise it feels like the marketplace of ideas is doing its thing, and it's certainly reflective of the american cultural moment.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

iron_mike wrote:

i think ultimately i'd prefer to live in a world with more speech rather than less

How nice.

Worth taking a look at this from Italy (not the US), on the effect of live (at match) racist speech in soccer - and thinking about what it means to you, if anything. Maybe it means nothing to you. It might be different than the effect of racism away from competition, and is just one study, but to me it is interesting food for thought.

In case that's paywalled, here's the working paper with a clearly-written conclusion.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

You don't need to antagonize every commenter, you know...

I agree with so much of what you and others have said. Your insistence to (in an online forum, no less), not allow any oxygen for discussion besides your own interpretation of everyone's motives is staggering and unsurprisingly has been met with resistance.

When someone does / says something and you ask them what their reason for such is, you should believe them unless they have proven otherwise. I think you will find that the vast majority of people are good people.

Regarding racists chants in football. It is disgusting and people should be banned from stadia for it. Hate speech, in my opinion, is not covered by "free speech". The line is drawn when there is tangible, deliberate harm to others. This is one European's point of view and you may not care.

Wow. I certainly have asked people to STFU, but is the post you just commented on really not allowing oxygen other than my interpretation of motives?

In fact, I don't see any comment about motives of the poster in what you just quoted above. There is nothing as far as I can tell.

Moreover, a key point I've made about racism is that the motives or intentions or mindset of a person are not the whole story - and that impact is important too. Sorry if you missed that. It's central to my argument.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

After all of this has played out, I think Caleab is on point. Only she knows where she is at (mentally, emotionally) and while it was a surprise to most of us, she did what was right and best for her. I personally was surprised by her withdrawal from the team and individual aspects as she is probably one of the strongest athletes we've seen in a while. I have no idea what it is like to be a gymnast, but I appreciate the hours and focus they put in for years, much like swimmers and figure skaters.

I will say I was surprised by some comments regarding race. This was never about race or gender (when I started this post), but about the best athlete representing USA and catching everyone off guard when she stopped. Anyway, hope she does well in the beam individual portion .

I feel empathy because sometimes, you have a goal that you want to achieve but with it comes public scrutiny. It is totally possible to want to be great at something and not want the public adulation/tear down. It is well said in Dressel's interview above. I also feel empathy because if you are a minority and actually want to do something that many others want to win at, your path to winning will have way more barriers (which inherently we may just have to accept) and if you get to the success point, you can't flinch off script without being torn down by all those who don't want you there and would rather see you fail.

Everytime I see a prominent minority make any "mistake" or "veer off script" I think, "OK here we go again, its gonna be a gong show now". Ben Johnson getting busted in Canada for doping at Seoul when he ran 9.79, was an eye opener on the treatment of doing anything on the wrong side of the line. The reception that Ben Johnson got vs Lance two decades later is really telling.

In any case, I think it is totally cool to walk from the public scrutiny at some point when you achieved your goals. Just cause achieveing those athletic/scientific/business/music/entertrainment goals comes with public scrutiny does not mean you have to nor want to put up with it in perpetuity. Totally cool to say, "been there, done that, achieved what I want, don't need to deal with the shit anymore....I got what what want".

In a much smaller context this is what I did when walked from the Royal Canandian Air Force in 1996. It was a great ride, but not the place to thrive for life for a minority engineer athlete. That was three areas I was not "playing the game". The Air Force really does not want you to be a real engineer even if they pay to train you to be one, they have performance sports programs, but the system outside of the sport resents athletes for being on military teams and gettting out of "hard work" and layer on top of that that I did not look like everyone else. It made no sense to go to a front line role in a combat zone for what I wanted out of life (by then I was 30 and my brain worked better and realized no one takes care of maimed soldiers when they come back from war zones). I got what I wanted and did not want any more scrutiny that I was not playing the game the system needed me to play.

I am just sharing the above, because everyone lives inside systems where they have to get personal gain and decide when that system is not helping their life. If you stay with the system to be a good player but the system breaks you, you have to live with broken you your entire life. My dead and maimed classmates from frontline combat roles are on their own. This is how the world works. You need to figure out when you are being used and when you are no longer using the system to your advantage.

All these athletes are pawns in the IOC money making machine. Totally cool when athletes don't want to be pawns and they want to be leaders deciding on their own fates in life.

I'm not sure Ben Johnson got it worse than Lance. Ben Johnson got a two year ban for a failed drugs test, while Armstrong got a lifetime ban from cycling without even failing a test. Perhaps in Canada Johnson received a more negative public relation, but around the world I think Armstrong was much more hated.

Even if Johnson got a worse reception, I'm not really sure you can put it down completely to race, although it may have had a role. You have two completely different people, in different sports, different time periods etc. Perhaps the fact Lance raised millions of dollars made people more willing to forgive him?

Sport is full of examples of inconsistency in how dopers are treated. Lance lost everything. Someone like Jonathan vaughters is basically forgiven and now managing a team. Nobody even speaks about Eddie Merckx or Carl Lewis positive tests.

On a positive note, Simone was in competition and scored a bronze. Pretty awesome when all the naysayers would have cheered for her to fail. Stepping up with that extra pressure must have been unreal. Good on her.

How did this thread go 13 pages with no one mentioning boxing legend Roberto Durán infamously quitting against Sugar Ray Leonard, saying "no más"? Durán, one of the greatest fighters of all time, will forever be linked to the phrase "no más".

Boxing is different in that you are actively getting the shit beaten out of you by someone who doesn't care about your health, mental or otherwise

Knowing when to stop can literally save a life [see Duk Koo Kim vs Ray Mancini]

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

The thing I am thinking about is calling the twisties/yips a mental health item. This seems a different use than say Osaka feeling her mental health was being damaged.
Not making any judgement just an observation of what constitutes a mental health issue - how broad or narrow is the usage of "mental health"?

I think it's a good question, I think there is probably a spectrum. If an NBA player is struggling to hit 3 pointers is that simply a slump or a mental health issue? Assuming they are shooting ok in training and just not performing in games you have to say it's psychological and not physical.

On the other hand we applaud "clutch" performances and those athletes that are able to overcome immense pressure at key points. I do think it is a trainable skill to perform under pressure (a key reason sports psychologists are employed). If it's trainable is it unreasonable to expect athletes to perform and criticise them when they can't deal with the pressure? We expect athletes to prepare physically so why not mentally.

Of course dealing with pressure is on the minor end of the psychological side of things. I don't think anyone would say an athlete choking under pressure is the same as an athlete suffering with depression.

I appreciate the response. When she first pulled out, I was thinking it was similar/same to Osaka since that story was still fresh. When they explained further she lost her mojo for her activities, it seemed a very different thing. I remember feeling sympathy for the "mental health" explanation but then feeling confused about it being the "twisities" and I thought - well that's not the same thing at all! But it course, it is all connected but that was my set of feelings when it happened.

USA gymnastics has a record of NOT taking care of Biles and the other women. She might have an obligation to think about the other gymnasts, but not to the public or the Federation. And in fact, when Biles steps out, others (Suni Lee) step up, and get to win for themselves and the team. Lee's father was quoted as thanking Biles for allowing Lee to compete in her place.

None of us will know what it's like to try to land after doing what she does. It's 100% up to Biles as to whether she's ready to compete.

my 2 cts, apologies if one of the other 300+ posts makes the same point.

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Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe

The way the story got out there, and then the way the media grabbed it and keeps telling it is hugely problematic. They're not doing the issues of mental health any favors.

The twisties are not a mental health issue. The twisties, in this case, are a manifestation of a mental health issue. My guess (and it's only a guess since I'm not Simone) is that her body/mind shut down from all the stress, and the twisties is how it showed up.

If you are going to make a statement regarding the media coverage and it being problematic you should state what you perceive to be wrong about the coverage and why it is huge hugely problematic.

Your "logic" is not logical. If her twisties are a manifestation of her mental health, then they are absolutely part of the mental health conversation. Symptoms are part of the discussion in any illness / disease. What you are suggesting is like saying that alcoholism is not a mental health issue even though it often stems from mental health issues.