i did one last summer in switzerland called the helveticman - the bike has 3400 meters of climbing and the run another 700 meters. it's switzerland, so it's never going to be crazy-hot, but it was high 20s and maybe even 30 on the bike.

the guy who won it (samuel hurzeler) went 5:53. the year before he'd gone 8:11 at ironman cozumel!

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Andorra 70.3 in a few weeks..... course is epic and bonkers and awesome.

altitude swim (5300ft) into long descent, big climbs, super technical fast descents (about 600ft elevation gain), run at mild elevation (3300ft).

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

A headwind will generally have a far more negative effect than can be compensated by the benefit of the same magnitude tailwind.
If you get the tailwind on the uphill segments and headwind on the downhills it may reduce the impact a bit (though not always). If the wind speed, direction, or exposure varies such that you are aided more by the tailwind (high wind speed, high exposure, etc) than impeded by the headwind (wind speed is lower, road is sheltered, you're in a group if draft legal, etc....) then you may break even or even benefit, but all being equal, wind makes you slower on a looped course.

I’ve completed over 50 Half Ironmans. And I’ll say that Honu destroyed me the most.
I had spent a week training in kona before including 4x 160km ride to hawi.
But in reality, the races are only as hard as you go.

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you gotta get lionel racing internationally more often!

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I would be interested to see how these compared to the old 70.3 UK/Wimbleball, that was a very tough course - I seem to remember the pros taking >2:30 on the bike with >3 hours common for the pro women.

Just an FYI IM made Lubbocks bike a lot easier this year (6/27/21) to attempt to draw more competitors. It no longer goes up and down the canyon and is almost entirely flat.

Agreed.
Honu is tougher.
Swim is more difficult.
Bike is just more dehydrating as it's hot and humid the whole day.
Run is just difficult on the grass and heat and you get no steady rythm on all the terrain changes.

Loved that race.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

I was also going to mention that one! Did it 5 times and it was a brute of a day out, often wet/rainy. Macca called it the hardest 70.3 he ever did.

I really miss that race 😢

I suppose the most difficult races are those that are unexpectedly difficult.
But not so difficult that you quit or "jog it in."

For instance:
I did 70.3 Florida Haines City this year.
I though it was going to be a fast course!!!
But......
technical problems on the bike made me extremely un-aero, and caused me to burn a lot of matches
And the 85 degree temperature, with the 90% humidity....
And somehow they found hills for the run.

70.3 St George has always treated me way better and been way faster.
But I was usually prepared for the conditions.

I'm surprised I haven't seen CDA 70.3 on this thread. I was always under the impression that it's a pretty difficult course, but I guess not compared to St. G.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

I never replied with Savageman because I have never done it. Many of my friends have. The verdict? Paging Murphy's Law!!!

Marbella 70.3. Has to be one of the only WTC race where you go straight out of T1 up a 2k foot climb. Also just a spectacular race and the AG field depth makes racing in the US feel like a joke in comparison.

Savageman is in a different league but if we are focused only on IM…

this is an interesting point. the gongshow half i was talking about above, i was running with a backpack on. we all knew it would be a 6 or 7-hour day, and i felt OK by the end.

but years ago and canadian nationals, i did a half-ironman that was the last race (why!?) in a long day, and it was really hot and humid, and eventually the aid stations were out of most things, and i tell you . . . i suffered.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I think St G is harder than Honu. Honu can be really tough on a bad day, but St G is hard on a good day. I have ridden up to Hawi 20 plus times, sometimes its beautiful, sometimes it rains and most of the time there are tough winds, its' when the trades pick up mid morning when things get really hard and hot.

Agreed, Andorra 70.3 looks by far the toughest on paper. Not sure if the winner will go sub 4h despite a very competitive pro field?
- water temperature and quality will be very challenging (water temperature expected to be 14C or 52F and the water is really muddy / borderline not healthy to swim in). and the highest altitude swim in the IM calendar I believe
- a lot of elevation on the bike and very technical descents

I am registered for this race and getting quite anxious about the temperature...

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It doesn't get easier, you just get slower
https://mymsracesironman.home.blog/

Lance did 3:50 at Honu. Honu is very dependent on weather, which is generally such to make it very tough. I think St. G in the right conditions (windy, hot, non-wetsuit/choppy) could be quite hard as well.

Hard to compare and different courses present different difficulties for different triathletes (big people don't like heat, small people don't like wind...etc.)

Not sure it matters if a bunch of folks think whatever half is the hardest. Most folks have very limited experience relative to the shear number of 70.3s now so people don't really have a good frame of reference to judge...

I know a bunch of people who have done Honu and St. G and the consensus seems to be that they are both pretty tough and generally not PR courses....

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Okay I'll praise a tailwind.

IMAZ(the last spring race) I had a 10 mile segment on the beeline headed back into town where I averaged 30mph even though my average bike was around 19mph. The other direction was miserable as it was mostly 12-15mph.

That was the fastest 10 mile segment I've ever had including the keene descent.

I'm sure there was a declination also, but overall the beeline feels and looks really flat.

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Swim - Bike - Run the rest is just clothing changes.

Ummmm No!
I have raced Honu 5 times ( 2008, 2012 (I did not finish or even start the run because of a torn meniscuss) 2017, 2018, and then 2 weeks ago.
So I have raced it in every condition, Calm days, Windy days, Hot days (No rain drizzle up to Hawi like this year), and Cooler days (drizzle on the bike as stated before as the run is always HOT). Fit and Not so much. As you can see on my finish times between 525ish and a little over 6 over those 13 years (38 to 52 years old), I am a mid pack racer.
I have raced St George 2x and have done Wildflower 4 or 5 times as well.

What makes Honu hard is the conditions on the day. The fact that it is relatively early in the season so most folks do not have heat training, yet. In addition a non wetsuit Ocean Swim (although the water is so Salty it feels like swimming in a wetsuit, and I am a sinker) which most of the time is Choppy with Sun Glare being an issue on the back straight. So they maybe a bit fatigued from the swim. (This years swim was at a different location than usual as well, but based on the chop it was like 2008 at Hapuna Beach with the Mass Start) I see it as a "slow course" because of the choppy swims, cross winds on the bike, and the golf course run vs. a "hard" course. The golf course does not melt you and beat you up like 13 miles of concrete at St George. Or the big hills on the run course at Wildflower both of which are just as Hot.

Honu is tough and you need to be prepared, but not the hardest by any stretch of my imagination.

* St George is a much tougher course because of the run is straight up for the first 3 miles and it is Stoopid hot, and then bike is Stoopid Hot with a few hard climbs. Ez swim though

* Wildflower (not sure if it is counted as it may or may not return) has a hard ass bike and then a hard ass run. Swim can be choppy but usually pretty smooth with a wetsuit.


Pete

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2017 Cervelo P2
2017 Cervelo S2
itraininla.com
#itraininla

Cool thread, thanks for kicking off the discussion. I also did both this year, and thought that the St. George course was tougher, but conditions in Kona were worse (swimming directly into the sun, wind, humidity, heat). If not for two mechanicals on the bike course, I think my times would have been pretty similar at both races, though my effort (or at least my HR) was higher at Honu.

Looking forward (with great respect and a bit of trepidation) to revisiting Madame Pele in October.

I do not disagree, Hawaii is on my list and looking forward to it.

The old PacificCrest put on by WHY Racing in Sunriver OR was brutal. Starting at elevation and then you ride around the summit of Mt Bachelor. Follow that with a run in Central Oregon sun with little shade. That bike had me wishing for a mechanical.

Savageman hands down is harder than any of those. M-Dot is stupid anyways

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