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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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dangle wrote:
BigBoyND wrote:
dangle wrote:
I'm so happy that the cassettes will fit the 'old' Shimano freehubs. The move to SRAM 12 speed is going to be less painful when I can grab a few of the Shimano cassettes for my trainer and CX wheels. $112 USD instead of a new freehub and AXS cassette will save a ton of money.


Sram chain has different dimensions (roller size and maybe other dimensions too). It's not compatible with Shimano 12sp parts.

Mostly correct on the first part. I have seen non-Flattop chains running just fine in AXS systems and I would use a separate chain if using a completely different sized cassette. The roller size has a larger diameter on the AXS Flattop rollers. No other differences in spacing and such. The AXS road chainrings are supposedly made for the bigger rollers, but since the rest is the same, the slightly smaller rollers of the Eagle chain fit just fine. I could see less chain engagement on the AXS cassette, but the premise is using a different cassette and likely a different chain.

It might work in the short term.

If the rollers are bigger, that increases chain wrap radius (the chain is further from the cassettes center), which in turn shortens the distance between rollers relative to the sprocket teeth. So the roller will have to slide from one side (just slightly off center) of the sprocket recess to the other during each revolution.

When everything is new, this might be mostly fine. But it will create uneven wear on the cassette, accelerate wear on the chain, and increase friction.
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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BigBoyND wrote:
dangle wrote:
BigBoyND wrote:
dangle wrote:
I'm so happy that the cassettes will fit the 'old' Shimano freehubs. The move to SRAM 12 speed is going to be less painful when I can grab a few of the Shimano cassettes for my trainer and CX wheels. $112 USD instead of a new freehub and AXS cassette will save a ton of money.


Sram chain has different dimensions (roller size and maybe other dimensions too). It's not compatible with Shimano 12sp parts.


Mostly correct on the first part. I have seen non-Flattop chains running just fine in AXS systems and I would use a separate chain if using a completely different sized cassette. The roller size has a larger diameter on the AXS Flattop rollers. No other differences in spacing and such. The AXS road chainrings are supposedly made for the bigger rollers, but since the rest is the same, the slightly smaller rollers of the Eagle chain fit just fine. I could see less chain engagement on the AXS cassette, but the premise is using a different cassette and likely a different chain.


It might work in the short term.

If the rollers are bigger, that increases chain wrap radius (the chain is further from the cassettes center), which in turn shortens the distance between rollers relative to the sprocket teeth. So the roller will have to slide from one side (just slightly off center) of the sprocket recess to the other during each revolution.

When everything is new, this might be mostly fine. But it will create uneven wear on the cassette, accelerate wear on the chain, and increase friction.

As said above "I could see less chain engagement on the AXS cassette, but the premise is using a different cassette and likely a different chain."
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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Then you're just moving the same issue to the AXS chain ring
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe. People seem to be using non-Flattop chains in road AXS setups without any obvious problems. Garbaruk makes a 107 BCD chainring (for AXS) that they say works fine with any chain as well. I'm all for experimenting and finding out what works. It's been years of being told that things aren't compatible when they really are in practice.
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
I've got 2 SRM DA 9000's right now but I'm ready to move on from them as SRM service is behind the times. I do think the shimano PM will be much better than it was but not so sure how it will stack up against others like quarq, p2m, favero, etc.

I have to say I agree with you on the service lately. I sent one in and after 3 weeks sitting on a self they sent it to my old address in Texas from 2012, was a nightmare getting it back, actually chalked it up as a loss but 10 days later was at my door in NC. Sent another in and had it back in a week so go figure. I think when the new Shimano Power system comes out, I'm going to give that a try. I like the look and ratio options of the new DA9200 cranks.
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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jeffp wrote:
Dura-ace eats cables as much as any of the others. my rear shift cables never make it a year without breaking in the shifter. which reminds me, I need to switch mine out soon again as shifting is no longer crisp, again.

Yep, time to change cables when they are no longer feeling crisp. Way easier to change out an intact cable, than performing surgery on your shifters trying to retrieve tiny wires that have broken off the main cable.

Waiting until the cable breaks is a mistake you only make once.....
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [mcalista] [ In reply to ]
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This release is a huge let down for me. Ive read many release articles and listened to the marginal gains interview.

Semi wireless (with the capability to still be fully wired...) is not really that game changing. They just repackaged XTR chains and rotors as dura ace, nothing new or exciting there and the rotors look worse than old. For TT and tri bikes, no new remote shifter options, you have to do a firmware update to older parts and run the system fully wired?? Really?

I ride Shimano. Massive respect for the brand and what they do for cycling, but I just feel like they missed the mark here.
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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dangle wrote:
geetee wrote:
dangle wrote:
BigBoyND wrote:
dangle wrote:
I'm so happy that the cassettes will fit the 'old' Shimano freehubs. The move to SRAM 12 speed is going to be less painful when I can grab a few of the Shimano cassettes for my trainer and CX wheels. $112 USD instead of a new freehub and AXS cassette will save a ton of money.


Sram chain has different dimensions (roller size and maybe other dimensions too). It's not compatible with Shimano 12sp parts.


Mostly correct on the first part. I have seen non-Flattop chains running just fine in AXS systems and I would use a separate chain if using a completely different sized cassette. The roller size has a larger diameter on the AXS Flattop rollers. No other differences in spacing and such. The AXS road chainrings are supposedly made for the bigger rollers, but since the rest is the same, the slightly smaller rollers of the Eagle chain fit just fine. I could see less chain engagement on the AXS cassette, but the premise is using a different cassette and likely a different chain.


My rough use case is using130-spaced wheels and rim braking with a 12-speed drivetrain, since SRAM no longer supports 11-speed Etap.


I'm not sure Shimano 12 speed will give you what you're looking for. Shimano themselves said the updated rim brakes would be "tough to find." and others inferred it was only for pro/sponsored riders. None of the reviews I have read had the new rim brakes or mechanical brake levers. SRAM 12 speed AXS has rim brake options available. Campy 12 speed is the only mechanical shifting, rim brake option I'm aware of.

The only possible update the rim brakes might be getting is a different finish to match the aesthetics of the 9200 components. The 9100 brakes will do just fine.

All you'll need to hunt for will be the 9250 shift levers for rim brakes.
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [Bdaghisallo] [ In reply to ]
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Bdaghisallo wrote:
dangle wrote:
I'm not sure Shimano 12 speed will give you what you're looking for. Shimano themselves said the updated rim brakes would be "tough to find." and others inferred it was only for pro/sponsored riders. None of the reviews I have read had the new rim brakes or mechanical brake levers. SRAM 12 speed AXS has rim brake options available. Campy 12 speed is the only mechanical shifting, rim brake option I'm aware of.


The only possible update the rim brakes might be getting is a different finish to match the aesthetics of the 9200 components. The 9100 brakes will do just fine.

All you'll need to hunt for will be the 9250 shift levers for rim brakes.

Why would the corresponding levers be any easier to find than the brakes?
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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dangle wrote:
Bdaghisallo wrote:
dangle wrote:
I'm not sure Shimano 12 speed will give you what you're looking for. Shimano themselves said the updated rim brakes would be "tough to find." and others inferred it was only for pro/sponsored riders. None of the reviews I have read had the new rim brakes or mechanical brake levers. SRAM 12 speed AXS has rim brake options available. Campy 12 speed is the only mechanical shifting, rim brake option I'm aware of.


The only possible update the rim brakes might be getting is a different finish to match the aesthetics of the 9200 components. The 9100 brakes will do just fine.

All you'll need to hunt for will be the 9250 shift levers for rim brakes.


Why would the corresponding levers be any easier to find than the brakes?

I didn't suggest that they would be. 9100 rim brake calipers are pretty easy to get now so there'd be no need to hunt for 9200 calipers unless you have to have matching finishes.
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, I'm using a AXS flat top chain (Force AXS group) on a supposedly 11sp NW chainring - some non-brand / chinese thing I bought on Amazon - and it runs flawlessly.
I would also be very keen to try a 11-34 Shimano 12sp cassette on my gravel bike and IDT where I don't need a 10 cog and save me having to get XDR drivers. Figure I could use that with a 12sp eagle or shimano chain and my Amazon chainring... will update if I ever get there.
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [SAvan] [ In reply to ]
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Is the chain line the same between AXS and new 12spd Shimano? For some reason I thought SRAM fiddled with the chain line on AXS to adjust the system to try and better hit the sweet spot with both 1x and 2x.
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