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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Casey, on the one hand you say this:

"We didn't vote for it because we have the sense that we dictate how things should be in the world. It's becoming clearer everyday that we are not a nation that respects anyone's opinions but our own."

On the other hand you admit that the new commission is not an improvement on the old.

Is it just possible that the US didn't vote for it because of the lack of reforms that you yourself acknowledge?
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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Casey, I think we want to pick up our jacks and our ball and go home because we pretty much know that even our most thoughtful and well-laid out plans tend to get hijacked and used against us by these petty regional blocs who vote against us, no matter the issue

The one concern I have with the U.S acting alone (and I think sometimes it can be justified) is when we ignore our traditional allies. It wouldn't have changed the outcome but having allies in your back pocket is valuable.

Canada and many countries sent soldiers to Afghanistan because they agreed with our mission. Canada is still there providing a valuable role. When they hesitated in going to Iraq, we should have listened to them and addressed their concerns instead of plowing ahead and trying to gain support from Eritrea, Peru and Madagascar and then pretending that the coalition of the willing was strong. It was a joke with most countries being bribed to join in and to make it look like a formidable unified group.

I'm pretty sure you can't have a united world body with so many diverse interests to please, you end up with a paralysis of analysis. I do think it is important to get our traditional, democratic, wealthy allies back on our side. We sure could use their help now in Iraq.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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There is a notion that inmates of mental institutions often need to be (gently, carefully) introduced to.

When it seems that the whole world is out to get you, or when you alone are right and everyone (EVERYONE!) else is wrong, wrong, wrong; then just maybe it is your own perceptions and attitudes that could use a little adjustment.

It reminds me of a fascinating moment in the days following 9/11 when GWB was asked in a press conference if he understood why the US inspired such animosity in so much of the world. At the time there might have been an international audience of a billion people worldwide. Of course he would, or should, understand. He would certainly have enough educated advisors who could explain it to him if it was at all unclear.
However, telling the truth had to be awkward at such a delicate time. So he chose to lie. He said something like: "I don't understand, because I know America and Americans and we are so good". His official line was that if the world doesn't love us, then that's simply inexplicable. In the following days he refined this to say "They hate our freedoms", and this has pretty much been the line ever since. The line of many of the conservatives on this forum is similar, possibly even less sophisticated. Not much insight.

BTW, I'm still waiting for any attempt to answer certain questions about the type of human rights affected. The US has a form of democracy, so policy mostly reflects the will of the people. Why does the US want to be the only country in the world to execute children? I understand what some of you have tried to say about not wanting to be sanctioned by other countries when you do it, but why does the US alone think that it should continue to do it. I know that the US has grown rich and powerful while executing more children than any other country, but can anyone offer a better defence of the practice than that??
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [Bone Idol] [ In reply to ]
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"Why does the US want to be the only country in the world to execute children?"

Hate to trouble you with more facts, but the execution of minors is illegal in this country.

Guess you didn't get the memo, or, you just can't read it through your fog of hate.

Edited to add the thought that if you are interest in examples of the execution of children, you need only tune into the Saddam trial. He did it by the bus load. Real children. Innocent children, not brutal murders.
Last edited by: ajfranke: Mar 17, 06 16:32
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [Bone Idol] [ In reply to ]
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Guy, where do you get these notions? You say we lack sophistication when we respond to your opinions (which usually are unsupported by fact), and I say you engage in sophistry of the worst sort. "Torture", "execution" (especially your particularly egregious statement that the "U.S. has executed more children than any other country") and other such words are thrown about by you, but you fail to cite even one non-partisan and authoritative source reference for such characterizations that all here could agree with.

Art's done yeoman work in providing explication, and I've posted at least one editorial by advisors to the current UN Human Rights Commission that gives the lie to your "the U.S. disrepects human rights" statement. Yes, the U.S. has its faults, and sometimes they can be frustrating. But, this nation is far and away the most superior advocate for human rights and respect for the rule of law than any other country you'll find out there, and that strong advocacy seems to be mirrored in other nations that are free and strong democracies. Sadly, it's a fact that in a nation of almost 300 million people, you'll have bad apples, but that just highlights the strength and superiority of our system of governance, which is derived from an almost perfectly-written document (our Constitution). We get it out in the open, for good or bad. But we also realize that that same document isn't a suicide pact, and that our style of democracy isn't a "one size fits all" model for other countries.

I'm sorry that you're frustrated that we haven't subordinated that document to some fuzzy and ill-defined court of international law (man, that court really did a great job in dragging old Slobo Milosevic to a fair and speedy trial, didn't it?), but you and your ilk give me no comfort whatsoever that, were your type put into power all of sudden, we wouldn't wake up the next day being governed by some sort of super-European Community version of governance in our own hemisphere, where the presidency devolves to the prime minister of Guyana, for example.

You seem to be like a lot of the left-leaning types I've met. You believe every negative thing you see, hear or read about our country and refuse to concede that we might possibly be on the correct path about anything, unless it conforms to your own narrowly-limited worldview. I've helped build hospitals and schools in some countries, and I've helped fight against the enemy in others (and sometimes in the same country, at the same time). I say to you that both methods can be equally as effective in the right circumstance. We've all seen real victims of real torture and genocide (sadly, I've seen some up close and personal). We're not even remotely close to sanctioning that sort of behavior, as a nation or as a people, regardless of what you think might have happened at Gitmo or in Abu Ghraib.

Boy, that Newsweek story on our so-called Koran-flushing servicemen down there in Gitmo sure panned out, huh? Just like those Downing Street memos proved to be true, too, right? Or the whole Bush National Guard memos thing. Or the former editor of USA Today, who said that he knew, just knew, that American troops were deliberately killing journalists over in Iraq. The list is endless and full of hasty rushes to judgement (Senator Dick "Gestapo" Durbin comes immediately to hand), and just as full of hasty retreats and choruses of "never mind!". But, to quote a famous Senator from the state of New York, "you know what I'm talkin' about".
Last edited by: big kahuna: Mar 17, 06 18:04
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [Bone Idol] [ In reply to ]
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"When it seems that the whole world is out to get you, or when you alone are right and everyone (EVERYONE!) else is wrong, wrong, wrong; then just maybe it is your own perceptions and attitudes that could use a little adjustment. "

And sometimes everyone else is just wrong. Or everyone else just thinks differently and neither side is wrong, but why should we change to suit them?

"Why does the US want to be the only country in the world to execute children? "

That's a funny way to word the question, because it's certainly not that Americans want to be the only country that does this. However, Americans have determined that this policy is the best thing for our country. If the rest of the world wants to go a different way, that's fine. Americans have decided that certain crimes deserve the punishment of death, even for children of certain ages. Certainly not all Americans agree about this, but I would guess that if all of the other countries in the world were democratic, and people were allowed to vote on this type of thing, we wouldn't be the only ones still doing it.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I've read many memos, written several too.

SCOTUS ruled against juvenile capital punishment a year ago. It only went 5-4, and the conservative whingers went into overdrive as they usually do about the unelected liberal bleeding heart court. SCOTUS doesn't think you should kill kids or the mentally handicapped, and rednecks think that liberalism is the country's biggest problem.

At a government level (>50% states & federal), though, kid killing is still the preferred policy. The Feds are proudly on the record internationally as the only country (other than Somalia) unwilling to ratify The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which among other things forbids capital punishment for juveniles. Isolated again, on the wrong side of a fundamental human rights issue again, what is the US' problem? What would it lose by agreeing to work for the protection of children, and not to execute them?

Again, why does the US want to be the only country in the world to execute children? Don't deflect this by pointing at Saddam. He's a tyrant and a war criminal. What's your excuse?
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [Bone Idol] [ In reply to ]
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"Again, why does the US want to be the only country in the world to execute children?"

Again, you're asking the wrong question.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [Bone Idol] [ In reply to ]
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Since you can't answer the question in post 21 related to your original thread, you move on to a different issue. Pretty typical tactic among those who don't know what they are talking about.

You might try to find the memo that notes that the reason Hussein isn't killing children anymore is because of action by the US. Ditto for the reason Iraq's infant mortality is down by 60% in three years.

Actually, I don't know of single child that has been executed during my lifetime at least. Some have been eventually executed for their actions prior to being 18, but I think you would run out of such cases before you ran out of fingers if you were to count recent examples. I will wager you can't name one.

Hurry up. Do a google quick to find one. You might.

At least you could have moved on to a topic you knew something about, but you missed there too. Apparently you ignorance knows no bounds.
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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That's a long post, with only one sentence without an outright falsehood or dumb supposition, so I'll not bother with a line by line refutation.

Slow, thanks for addressing the question (and without gratuitous insults). Yes, simply put, a majority of Americans believe in executing children in certain circumstances. It is so astonishing a fact to me that I wanted to know if anyone would say so explicitly and try to defend it, rather than the intellectually vacuous "Others are worse", "you are ignorant" & "you hate America" that passes for rhetoric here.

I'd be hard pressed to believe that any other democracy would adopt such a policy (none have) but we're both speculating. I prefer to believe that the US itself will become more enlightened in time, on this and a few other issues (the evidence is with me and the optimists on this).

For the record, all, a respect for human rights is not inconsistent with a respect for the US (quite the contrary) nor with RIGHT leaning politics (for which I am universally known in the real world).
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [Bone Idol] [ In reply to ]
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That's a long post, with only one sentence without an outright falsehood or dumb supposition, so I'll not bother with a line by line refutation.

See, you just made another trite and inane sophist statement. You can't seem to help yourself, guy. And I'm sure that I don't mind a refutation. Heaven knows I've done it enough times to others here, so I ought to be able to take a little of it back when it's thrown my way (you listening Vitus? Slowguy? ;-)

Here's a little something I heard the other day from a few Jewish conservative comedians (Good Lord! There's such a thing as Jewish conservative comedians?!?):

- "How do I understand a Liberal? I take a Conservative, then I take away reason and accountability." (Keith Barany)

- “I heard that ‘Republicans are the daddy party’ and ‘Democrats are the mommy party....’ Well, folks ... mommy is no longer with us. We Republicans are now single parents. There is now only the grown-up party and the kiddy party.... Once you understand Democrats are children, you understand everything you need to know about them.... Why Democrats are children: Children and Democrats have a very rich fantasy life ... a hard time differentiating between fantasy and truth.... When you don’t believe in truth ... your job becomes to indoctrinate others, to undermine other people’s belief in truth.... That’s why they don’t like intelligent design — they don’t like intelligent anything.” (Evan Sayet)

You, sir, seem to fit in nicely with the above two quotes.
Last edited by: big kahuna: Mar 18, 06 1:12
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [Bone Idol] [ In reply to ]
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I am still hoping that you will come up with a single reform the new charter has as an improvement over the old charter. Presumably, you are unaware of any. There might actually be one somewhere. I lift the no google restriction in the hopes of an intelligible answer.

I was just reminded in an article that the two thirds vote requirement for membership on the new commission was Kofi Anan's original proposal. Now that Kofi blessed the approach, will you apologize for attacking the United States' advocacy of it? Of course not.
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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It was a joke with most countries being bribed to join in and to make it look like a formidable unified group.

You could make the same argument about the dissenting votes of those countries who voted against the invasion of Iraq while continuing to do business with Saddam.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [DualFuel] [ In reply to ]
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You could make the same argument about the dissenting votes of those countries who voted against the invasion of Iraq while continuing to do business with Saddam.

With our past history of supplying Hussein with the arms to fight Iran, I don't think we are in a position to throw stones at other countries. There are also countries (Canada for one) that had the foresight to not invade and had no significant economic reason for doing so.

And, there are many U.S companies doing well now in Iraq, so other countries could argue that we invaded for our own economic benefit, and have a point.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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"And, there are many U.S companies doing well now in Iraq, so other countries could argue that we invaded for our own economic benefit, and have a point."

This is just a dumb statement Casey. Either make it on your own and defend it, or cast it aside. Hit and run comments about what "others could argue" don't add much to the debate. Either argue it or don't.
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Either make it on your own and defend it, or cast it aside. Hit and run comments about what "others could argue" don't add much to the debate. Either argue it or don't.

I am using Bush's tactics. I read a long analysis of Bush's speeches this weekend and the comment was that he often uses terms like "many people say" or "some say" without any form of support for who these people are.

His use of rhetorcial questions and answers is something I would like to use because he has so much support here so I figured people wouldn't come down on me for doing the same thing.

"Some here say" my use of rhetoric is inappropriate but I disagree since it is shared by our President, so it must be right.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't noticed Bush posting here. What is his handle?
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Re: US fails to halt Human Rights initiative [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't noticed Bush posting here. What is his handle?

ajfranke

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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