That's along the lines of what I was thinking about last night. If you had two valve stems, you could build an inner and outer setup. The inner one would be a relatively indestructible backup tube, maybe at 100 or so PSI, that never touches the tire unless you flat. Then on the outside you could run tubeless. Could be the best of both worlds, if a bit complex

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George Dedopoulos | @geodee | geodee.com | Team Atomica | Toronto Triathlon Club

Dan,
After using the Vittoria Airliners, what are your thoughts?

Thanks.

https://www.schwalbe.com/en/procore

Like this from Schwalbe !!

from idea to practice, the product is great in every way save one, and it's a big one. when you put an air liner on a rim, it seeks the well of the rim. the air liner is smaller than the circumference of the wheel, and mounting it is like putting a 650b tube on a 700c rim. so, when it's on the rim, it sucks right down into the well. the problem is this: the bead of the tire needs the well, when mounting. you can't get the second bead of the tire over the rim unless the first bead sits in the well. but it can't sit there, because the air liner is in there. it's like when you open the door of your car and your dog jumps in and sits in the seat you intend to sit in, and won't move. that's the air liner. the dog that won't move. makes the tire extremely hard to mount.

this is the thing that needs to get solved. one way to solve it is for vittoria to demonstrate to me the error in my mounting technique. but if that proper demonstration of mounting technique is extant, i have not seen it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I put my dog in the boot of the estate car (trunk of the station wagon in American). Then the seat is mine all mine.
Does Vittoria have any ideas for an equivalent of my Octavia Estate ? 😁

who's a good boy, Vittoria air liners, you're a good boy.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

i tried that. maybe stick your cat or a squirrel in front of the air liner; see if that budges it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Try pouring a can of Ol Roy into the rim bed first.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Look like the combination of liner and the Stans Dart to repair could really efficient on race day.


That been said, i'm not sure how the liner deal with old sealant (ie: what does it look like after 6 months of usage, do you need to throw everything away every time you want to change tires).

Or a similar idea. Have a rim with two valve stem holes. One hole is for a tubeless valve stem, and the other is for a tube. Normally the tube is empty, or nearly so (may want a slight amount of air to give it form). If you get a flat in the tubeless, that the sealant can't seal, use a CO2 cartridge to inflate the tube. Could be back on your way in less than a minute. Probably works best with butyl tubes.

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salmon - not because I'm a fish

On liners used in mountain biking, it's a clean / wipe down if / when the sealant goes dry. Defo not a throw-away. The foam is closed cell so it doesn't absorb the sealant. I believe these road liners are similar - and both Dan's infor and the manufacturer's says they don't absorb.

I thought it was something I was doing wrong in the fitting process, but I had this same experience - it was a nightmare getting the tyres back on the rim. What I did in the end was mount the tyre starting opposite the valve and ended at the valve, the opposite of what I do with an inner tube. With the air liner and tubeless valve all vying for limited space, I found leaving this bit until last enabled me to pinch the tyre into the well opposite to the valve to create the slack in the tyre to get it on at the valve. It was a complete pain tho.
They are in my Schwalbe Pro Ones, but I remain unconvinced. I’ve actually fitted them for Ironman Bolton 70.3 on 26 Sept. I did a recce of the course and the road surface is particularly poor about 15ks from the end of the bike, as well as some fast technical descents too. I’ll see how I get on with them. My Giant Slr1 wheels are hookless so fitting an inner tube as a fix wasn’t an option for me.

You can put a tube in a hookless wheel. You just can't run a clincher tire. You need a tubeless tire, but if need be, you can rub a tube in your tubeless tire.

Thanks for that info, I didn’t know you could put a tube in a hookless rim. Makes sense as the air liner is pretty much the same thing.

I’ve not used the road Airliners, but have mounted the mountain bike ones many times. At first I was encountering the same issues as you describe. Eventually I discovered that if you get a flat tire lever and use it to push the bead under the airliner, the airliner actually holds it in the well. You need to slowly work round the three pushing the bead under the airliner with the tyre lever. As somebody pointed out above, you also need to start opposite the valve, making the valve the very last bit you pop on. I can now get them on in not much more time than it would take to get a standard tubed tyre in. Road tyres may, of course, be different to my experience with mountain bike tyres where there is more room.

If there is a similarity though, then breaking the bead to get them off also takes some technique, and whilst I can now do it pretty quickly (I’ve probably taken a hundred or so off over the last few years) it’s not something I’d want to be messing around with in a race. Or to be honest, ever, at the side of the road.

there's a tool for breaking the bead, kind of like a tire jack but not. on the one hand i'd say that the need for a tool for this is enough for me to pass, just as if i need a tire jack to mount a tire i'll move onto another tire. but in this case, the system ought to work well enough that i'll almost never need to get that tire off until i'm going to replace it. i love the idea of a foam liner, because this theoretically allows you to ride in on a flat. okay, it's like driving with that space saver spare tire. but if it gets you into T2, that's enough. but i think there needs to be more education, videos, content on how to mount these things, with an acknowledgement that mounting is a bitch unless you know the technique.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

My experience using airliners with Corsa Speeds is that, well, they work great on punctures were the tire still holds some air but not much. There they prevent you hitting the rim and you can ride pretty safely on low psi.

When the tire is not holding any air at all and you're using it as a run flat, it would probably get you in T2 (I've ridden on one with the tire holding no air for 30km one weekend and 60km the next before the airliner desintegrated, so total 90km - they advertise 50km) but riding on the airliner alone feels like riding on a flat tire, and at 200-ish W I was doing about 27-28 km/hr instead of 33-ish km/hr on my road bike. Would lose a lot of time riding that way, and it'd be problematic if it was the front which is gone.

If the sealant doesn't seal, and with Corsa Speeds that's a distinct possibility, you basically want to repair them at home because in the field taking the tire off would require their tool which is a bit bulky. With sealant as plan A and darts or plugs as plan B, airliners as plan C make sense.