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what is the purpose of sculling?
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Everything I read and watch has sculling as a important swimming go to drill, yet no one really explains the purpose of it, what is it trying to achieve?

Is it to build muscular endurance in a high elbow position?
Is it to get you used to holding the high elbow position?
Is it to help with 'feel'?

And if these are the reasons wouldn't a drill with a snorkel starting from the high elbow catch position through to pull and repeat be better to ingrain the body mechanics, feel and endurance?

I just don't get the purpose of waving your hands around in circles out the front of your body??
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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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To deter triathletes from enjoying swimming so they don't get any faster

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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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Front note: I'm talking about front sculling here, which is what I think you were referring to?


It teaches your body (from your fingertips to your brain) how to work with the water to hold onto a spot aka the early part of the catch phase which is arguably the most important part of your stroke and is not gliding but should be an active phase (even if not yet fully propulsive). Then follows the vertical forearm and finally the 'push' (not really a push, just accelerating your body past your 'hold').

Best to do this drill for only part of the pool length and then going into full stroke. You should get a heightened sensation of what you do in the early catch phase when you start swimming full stroke. Repeat many times drill/swim lengths.

Another drill (to be combined with full stroke swimming) that I like for working on the catch (and timing of the stroke, and proper breathing position, and balance in the water while breathing, etc) is the 'Unco' drill. Swim with one arm, the other arm stays on your side (attached to the side of your body, not in front), breathe on the side of your non-working arm. When you start swimming you really feel that something's just right with it (for a moment at least, the goal is to make that moment last longer and longer).
Last edited by: Diabolo: Mar 23, 21 15:33
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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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To a large degree it feels like it's a holdover. Back in the '90s we were taught to do an "S" shaped pull and that the hand acted similar to a propeller blade to provide propulsion via lift (vs. working as a paddle). Sculling was a way of emphasizing feel for the propeller-like motion of the hand/arm.



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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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I always hated drills, but now I find myself barred from pools and a ~10m pool in my backyard. In a short pool, drills are endurable and help me put together a bit of a workout in a small pool. Front and back skulling, kick drills without a board, one-arm stuff can all be done in small residential pools for a workout in a pinch...

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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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When I get people to do sculling it's with a focus on learning to feel the water and understand what catching the water feels like when you get that elusive scull that actually felt good and got good propulsion. It's also a really handy way to drive home that swimming requires finesse and control rather than just raw power, and this drill makes those that try and muscle through the water reevaluate their stroke (sometimes it doesn't if people are too stubborn but what can you do) as they're dying and going backwards (in a literal and metaphorical way) whilst the person who normally swims maybe 2s/100m slower than them with a much smoother stroke flys up the pool.
In terms of holding a high elbow position it no doubt helps ingrain that, but that's not its primary purpose. In terms of your potential alternative drill, I've used a similar drill before but essentially what I believe you've described is doggy paddle as a drill when it's done correctly. It is more open to muscling your way through and managing it without feeling the water, as people can still make decent progress forwards doing it with terrible technique and no feel for the water. The genius of sculling out in front of your head is there is no real way to make progress through the water without catching and feeling the water to a significant extent.
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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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"To a large degree it feels like it's a holdover. Back in the '90s we were taught to do an "S" shaped pull and that the hand acted similar to a propeller blade to provide propulsion via lift (vs. working as a paddle). Sculling was a way of emphasizing feel for the propeller-like motion of the hand/arm."

x2 for me. From a swimmer's perspective (I'm not a coach), here's how that pattern was coached to us: a straight pull is like a lever 'planted' in one stationary spot; a pull with a catch and other angled motions 'finds' and moves more water. In a straight pull, your hand enters and exits the water in the same place; in an "s" pull your hand exits the water further ahead than it entered.

Is this true? Is this how fluid mechanics and physiology work? I do not know.

(An old "Russia" vs. USA version of this debate featured Eastern Bloc coaches demanding a straight line pull from their swimmers as part of a formulaic system of sport, while team USA swimmers and coaches experimented with new ideas in exercise science and creativity. Is this true? Again, I can't say for sure.)
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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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It's all about eliminating dead spots in your stroke. Just like the doggie paddle drill. This happens to be my biggest swimming flaw. Basically constant contact with the water surface.
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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [Raw Vegan] [ In reply to ]
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Is there a good Youtube video that anyone would recommend for proper sculling? I've always had a difficult time knowing exactly what it is supposed to look like...let alone feel like.
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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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good for feel.
can also be a crazy ab workout.

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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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Here is my .02 on sculling (while I def have a lot more to say I will boil it down here)

Swimming is a "feel" sport. Over and over on st here, people say that they can really tell when someone has a feel for the water or they dont.
Swimmer feedback is all about feel, before any stat is discussed.

How do we enhance feel for the water then?

In a nutshell, sculling.

Much akin to keeping pressure on your chain when you pedal, sculling helps us to better understand a constant pressure on the water. Constant pressure on the water is key to maintaining momentum. Sculling is not, as it was described here (not by you I don't think) but as doing circles w the hands. Please do not do that.

Sculling with your arms out in front of you and approx 45 degrees down from the surface of the water is probably the most beneficial area to scull in.

The sculling motion is this:
and try this standing with your chin on the surface and everything else below so your arms are out in front of you but a solid 6 inches below the surface. Arms straight out. Thumbs **almost touching making a 'V' shape with your hands. Pinky fingers are up thumbs are down, palms are facing away but not vertically. Angled. As you separate your arms you'll feel pressure of the water on your hands and forearms. Do this slowly at first.
As they pass shoulder width you then reverse the angle of your hands so that as they come together (if you brought them all the way together) your thumbs would be on top and the shape your hands would make would be an 'A' shape. Gently round out the ends of those arm movements just outside your shoulders and before your hands come together in the middle.
You are looking for consistency of pressure through the entire movement. Start slowly to get a sense of it. Gradually increase your arm/hand speed (note you're still standing !!!)
If done effectively you will start to see small whirlpools form above your arms/hands.
Do not move arms closer to surface or deeper. Keep them out in front of you consistently and maintain an engage elbow. Not straight locked out or bent too much at all.
Once you have done this for a few sessions. Try it as you lay on the surface. IF you happen to be someone who sinks drastically and has a super hard time keeping your feet up, throw in a small and gentle flutter kick behind to help support you but not propel you. DO NOT USE FLOATATION

This will enhance your FEEL for the water and consistency of pressure. You should note (when horizontal) that even WITHOUT moving your hands back toward you or past your head/chest/hips you can move forward.

Many coaches and great thinkers of aquatic performance (and myself included) have spent many an hour thinking of ways to teach or coach FEEL. In almost every discussion we eventually work ourselves back to sculling. (in one way or another)

As far as 'S' movement when you swim w your arms. This is a total waste. If you want to swim harder and slower, then go for it.

But as a test, take that standing/squatting sculling into the deep end where your feet are not touching.
Apply more pressure with faster and smaller sculling movements and increased energy in your posture. You'll notice that you can lift your head higher in the water.
Now. In that same deep end. Use your hands like pistons to push water VERTICALLY from armpit to hip. And back up. (meaning keep hand within an inch of the side of your body)
Go ahead and hammer on those piston movements and feel free to write back and tell me which direction you went. Up? or down?

All the best,
DaveD

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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It depends on the scull. I like sculling as a drill because it, first and foremost, focuses on body position in the water. Find your water body balance with head, shoulders, hips, and heels all at the surface. Then use the scull to focus on maintaining that position while adding in a portion of the stroke. I'm a big fan of the evf scull drills and the finish drills.



This one can be done under water or on the surface.







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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
Everything I read and watch has sculling as a important swimming go to drill, yet no one really explains the purpose of it, what is it trying to achieve?

Is it to build muscular endurance in a high elbow position?
Is it to get you used to holding the high elbow position?
Is it to help with 'feel'?

And if these are the reasons wouldn't a drill with a snorkel starting from the high elbow catch position through to pull and repeat be better to ingrain the body mechanics, feel and endurance?

I just don't get the purpose of waving your hands around in circles out the front of your body??

Yes, yes, and yes.

And yes, go ahead and use a snorkel while sculling. The point of sculling is really to gain feel for the water, and secondarily while doing that you can feel how body position affects your speed. As an age grouper, we would actually race 50m while sculling in a variety of positions (feet first face up and down, face down with hands out front/ mid-stroke/ by your side). You can really feel how much drag your sagging hips create when doing this.

'Waving your hand in circles' is the wrong concept. It should be a back and forth motion with your elbow in place; in some positions you'll move from the elbow down, others try just your wrist. Generate as much force with as little motion as possible, while also minimizing drag from body position.

If you don't want to scull, the next best drills I would recommend are isolation-type drills. For me, this is '6-kick roll drill' and single-arm freestyle. The former is taking a pause at the extension (pre-catch phase) of the stoke, fully rotated to one side (shoulder to chin) while counting 6 kicks before taking a pull. It will teach you how to catch more efficiently and accelerate during the stroke. Single-arm will do the same, but also teach to keep your kick going during the recovery phase, as well as show you where dead spots are in your stroke.

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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [daved] [ In reply to ]
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I’m an awful swimmer (I blame my poor shoulder flexibility), but I am a fluid dynamicist.

Propulsion from merely shoving mass rearward is relatively small compared to propulsion by “lift”. It doesn’t mean that someone must perform an “S” shaped stroke, but it does mean that the low pressure side of someone’s hand or forearms are contributing much more to propulsion than the high pressure sides are. In reality the hand/forearm is moving with something like a slight angle with respect to the water, which is not obvious to an observer since the body itself interferes.

If you look up images of fast swimmer’s forearms, you can see the deformation caused by this low pressure action. Merely “pushing water” results in flow patterns that cannot produce as much propulsion.

I think the fastest swimmers can feel the strong low pressure peak on their distal side of their hands and forearms. Heck, even I can feel it, but it just feels like I’m weightlifting to sustain it, even though my SWOLF score is pretty low, and stays low when I sprint.
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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [trimike77] [ In reply to ]
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Try looking at Swim Smooth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DPGEb90RNM

"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"
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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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"I think the fastest swimmers can feel the strong low pressure peak on their distal side of their hands and forearms."

A group once tested something like what you're describing using water jets aimed, from different angles, at swimmers' hands.
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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the response.

Id suggest forgetting swolf (if its similar to trying to take few strokes and go faster) you're just shooting yourself in the foot (or rather shoulders) as you try to improve.
DPS, distance per stroke, is just a data point. And it isn't even good data for a lot... hell, almost all swimmers. And specifically aos triathletes.

All the best,

daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [daved] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, it was just my concise way of saying my strokes per distance is naturally fairly low and even becomes smaller as I increase speed. But, I’m still fairly slow, at about 1:40-1:45 for 100 short course yards in 1600 yard pace, and 1:16 for a single 100 from a wall push.

I’ve never had a coach truly give me form advice though, just generic advice when I’ve had opportunities to ask. I swim about as fast with closed fists lol.
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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [TizzleDK] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks. That does help!
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Re: what is the purpose of sculling? [trimike77] [ In reply to ]
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Great glad to hear that

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