Nordic Skiing To Cycling

Mar 23, 21 14:48

Post #1 of 21 (1448 views)

This year we have been blessed locally here in Southern Ontario with a reasonably quick transition from Winter to Spring and from XC-Skiing Season to Outdoor Riding weather! It's not always like this - but I'll take it!

Last Sunday was my official last day of skiing for the winter - my fastest 32 km of the season. Sunday I rode 80km outdoors. I had worked in two 50 km outdoor rides the week before.

This past winter was a BIG return to skiing for me after a 10+ year hiatus. These first few rides - I'm noticing things that I noticed years ago when I was training for triathlons seriously and would put in a BIG winter of XC-Skiing*

As always this is n=1 - Despite less overall cycling this winter on the trainer and a big emphasis on XC-Skiing, these first few rides have been like a remember them from the past - not super fast, but feeling REALLY strong on the bike. Heart rate averages while cycling lower than I remember them in spring rides where I had not skied, and out-of-the-saddle climbing (a weakness of mine) at a whole other higher level.

*Years ago, there was a strong correlation between the amount of total volume that I skied in a winter, and the higher the level of performance I had lifted the skiing to, and a strong season of Triathlon racing the following summer.

Note to get this gain and this effect you really have to commit to the skiing - skiing a minimum 2 - 3 times a week, and working up to 3 - 4 hrs long skis ( both Classic & Skating) at a moderate levels of intensity. A few casual xc-ski seasons are not going to do it for you.

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Mar 23, 21 15:14

Post #2 of 21 (1432 views)

I had an inconsistent year of skiing, so not feeling as fit, but it sure beats humping the trainer all winter. Longest ski was 56km which was a good one for me.

Early spring means the roads are mostly dry and I can get bike fit for all those races.... err... what races...

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

Mar 23, 21 15:34

Post #3 of 21 (1419 views)

I had an inconsistent year of skiing, so not feeling as fit, but it sure beats humping the trainer all winter. Longest ski was 56km which was a good one for me.

56 km Skating was my longest ski as well in terms of distance, but I did a few 50km Classic Sessions that were longer in terms of time.

I skied 30 times in 3 months from last week of December to last week (3rd week of March).

Generally I found the Classic overall "easier" on my older body. The Skating seemed overall more demanding now. I don't swim, any more and have not in a long time. But that last time that a skied like this, I was still in very good swim shape, and thus better upper body fitness.

Very pleased with the results and the biggest thing I forgot to mention in my original post here, but have in my other posts about skiing this past winter - my wonky and bad lower back is BETTER from the skiing which is perhaps the BIGGEST revelation from all of this for me personally!

Bottom line - these first few Outdoor Rides have felt amazing. My BIG cycling Goal for the year - 300km in one go! My own Milan San Remo! :-)

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Mar 23, 21 17:47

Post #4 of 21 (1382 views)

I just skied and ran through winter. 1400km skiing and 600km running Jan thru March 20. Only rides were 20-30 min recovery spins. First day biking yesterday did 40km riding, 3km swim, 10km run. Two days before did my last 50km ski of the year. It was almost zero transition. Granted if I had to hammer and the bike I would be off the back but nothing 3 weeks of riding won't fix. I am also coming up on 90km swimming after starting up swimming Feb 21 or so due to lockdown so that also explains some of the quick transition over

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Mar 24, 21 5:43

Post #5 of 21 (1298 views)

Fleck wrote:

This year we have been blessed locally here in Southern Ontario with a reasonably quick transition from Winter to Spring and from XC-Skiing Season to Outdoor Riding weather! It's not always like this - but I'll take it!

Last Sunday was my official last day of skiing for the winter - my fastest 32 km of the season. Sunday I rode 80km outdoors. I had worked in two 50 km outdoor rides the week before.

This past winter was a BIG return to skiing for me after a 10+ year hiatus. These first few rides - I'm noticing things that I noticed years ago when I was training for triathlons seriously and would put in a BIG winter of XC-Skiing*

As always this is n=1 - Despite less overall cycling this winter on the trainer and a big emphasis on XC-Skiing, these first few rides have been like a remember them from the past - not super fast, but feeling REALLY strong on the bike. Heart rate averages while cycling lower than I remember them in spring rides where I had not skied, and out-of-the-saddle climbing (a weakness of mine) at a whole other higher level.

*Years ago, there was a strong correlation between the amount of total volume that I skied in a winter, and the higher the level of performance I had lifted the skiing to, and a strong season of Triathlon racing the following summer.

Note to get this gain and this effect you really have to commit to the skiing - skiing a minimum 2 - 3 times a week, and working up to 3 - 4 hrs long skis ( both Classic & Skating) at a moderate levels of intensity. A few casual xc-ski seasons are not going to do it for you.

N=2, when I lived in MN, I skied a ton and showed up for cycling and lake-swim season fit as a fiddle. Much more so than when I lived in another cold place but without snow to ski. If you're going to live in a cold place, make sure there's snow to play in! I can't stand in-between winters.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Mar 24, 21 5:46

Post #6 of 21 (1295 views)

Fleck wrote:

Generally I found the Classic overall "easier" on my older body.

Same. When I skate at high exertion my knees will hurt for a day or two. Classic is never an issue, even at prolonged high intensity efforts.

Overall I prefer classic for a workout and skate for fun. If I want a steady 150 bpm effort that I can hold indefinitely I'll classic and my HR is within range the whole time. If I skate it's all over the map, even if the average works out to the same. It's similar to road cycling vs mtb for me.

But it's nice to mix it up a little too. Especially skate skiing in the spring when it's fast; there's not much like it!

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [Durhamskier] [ In reply to ]

Mar 24, 21 7:48

Post #7 of 21 (1268 views)

But it's nice to mix it up a little too. Especially skate skiing in the spring when it's fast; there's not much like it!

Generally, I'll let the weather decide what I do - Skate or Classic. This last winter we had so many fresh snow and -5C days at Hardwood Hills it made the waxing for grip for Classic SUPER easy - Swix Extra Blue all day, every day! :-)

My last day of skiing was last Saturday - classic spring Skate skiing, fast and hard to start with really old groomed snow, at about -1C. I knew we had about a 2 hour window before it warmed up and became really wet and slow - so knocked out 32km in 2 hours! Great way to finish it off!

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [Durhamskier] [ In reply to ]

Mar 24, 21 8:32

Post #8 of 21 (1244 views)

Durhamskier wrote:

Fleck wrote:

Generally I found the Classic overall "easier" on my older body.

Same. When I skate at high exertion my knees will hurt for a day or two. Classic is never an issue, even at prolonged high intensity efforts.

Overall I prefer classic for a workout and skate for fun. If I want a steady 150 bpm effort that I can hold indefinitely I'll classic and my HR is within range the whole time. If I skate it's all over the map, even if the average works out to the same. It's similar to road cycling vs mtb for me.

But it's nice to mix it up a little too. Especially skate skiing in the spring when it's fast; there's not much like it!

I bet your knees hurt when you are skating due to pushing sideways. Next time concentrating on lunging forward and stepping up onto the flat ski. The combo of the weight transfer (more core toward next stride) and the very start of the poling motion completes the weight transfer, not the sideways push.

Skating on ice it is different since the blade,foot, ankle and knee can be in the same plane and tracking perfectly. On a wide ski and especially on hard snow, you don't get that nice alignment like you do in speed skating, cycling and running, so you end up with too much pressure on side of the knee. You can see this visually with rec skiers vs world cup guys. You can't totally eliminate that, but when done well, there is uniform pressure through the patella, not predominantly on the inside

You can see what I mean here. These guys are tracking in one plane through knee without a collapse on inside.

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]

Mar 24, 21 8:54

Post #9 of 21 (1231 views)

boobooaboo wrote:

I can't stand in-between winters.

Unfortunately, with climate change, our winters have become very challenging.
Last year sucked to start, and then was the best end of year ever.
This year was very dry and we went months with barely a skiff of new snow.
The past couple of years mid-winter rain has turned the snow into a skating rink.
I love skiing but it can be so challenging!!

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Mar 24, 21 10:11

Post #10 of 21 (1207 views)

I had some years in college where i only skied, and was able to transition to bike racing quite well. And post-college, some years I never did big riders over the winter - only skiing. Plus the trainer or short ride mid-week. Again great results.

I did sometimes have trouble with leg pain in races for a month - I was in a race I placed in, in the break, feeling really great, and I started getting cramps. Still did OK, but my overall fitness was higher than my ability to pedal long and hard. The cramps seems almost from the nervous system - like cramps in certain types of weight training.

Frankly, unless you intend to win races in the first month of bike racing, I think all skiing or almost all skiing would be almost as good in some ways, and perhaps even a little better than mainly riding. it's so much easier to do big hours outside and to hit high intensity outside on skis that on the bike in cold weather. Safer too.

Actually, there was at least one year where I did a ski race on Saturday (28K) and a bike race on Sunday. I was suffering on the Sunday. And also some years I did bike races some mornings in March, then an easy ski in at midday.

http://www.jt10000.com/

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

Mar 24, 21 10:20

Post #11 of 21 (1200 views)

Unfortunately, with climate change, our winters have become very challenging.
Last year sucked to start, and then was the best end of year ever.
This year was very dry and we went months with barely a skiff of new snow.
The past couple of years mid-winter rain has turned the snow into a skating rink.
I love skiing but it can be so challenging!!

Where are you located?

This past winter in Southern Ontario was interesting and great all at the same time.

We had one of the warmest Nov/Dec on record and the snow came late (Boxing Day). But the warm Nov/Dec meant little if any ice on Lake Huron and Georgian Bay - and the Lake Effect Snow Machine was in FULL Effect. It was ridiculous how much snow it dropped on that area starting around Barrie heading north up to Muskoka and over to the west to Collingwood.

And then we never had any wild swings. It seemed every day in January and February was -10C to -5C. No big meltdowns with rain, or extended days with super frigid weather in the -20C range.

March had a bit more variation - but past that first week, you really are into bonus skiing. My last day was last Saturday!

Now watch next winter, after we have bought our Seasons Passes for next Winter already, be one of those diabolical and awful winters for skiing! :-)

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Mar 24, 21 15:36

Post #12 of 21 (1134 views)

N=3, I skied 32 days this year, mostly skate technique. I started in early January and my last ski was last Saturday. Typical session was 2 hours for 20-25K and 1000+ vertical feet, and did that 2-3X per week.

I came out of the winter probably with a higher FTP than I went in, while only riding 1-2 times a week on the trainer for an hour, usually Zone 2. I have re-started threshold rides at last seasons FTP and they are easy. My run has suffered a little but it should be back within 4 weeks or so. I find that the skiing provides all of the intensity I need and the trainer sessions can be easy recovery.

This is the third season where I have done this and frankly for me its incredible what skiing can do as an off season activity. It seems to boost cardiovascular fitness while maintaining or boosting specific strength for cycling.

I live in NH, the season started 3 weeks late this year and ended a week earlier which is clearly a climate change kind of winter. The good news is my local area is building a $3.5M snow making system for a homologated, lighted 2.5K loop that should open in late November next year. (read= awesome but a sad response to global warming) So my plan for next year is to quit tri-training a little earlier, do 15 roller ski sessions before November, then ski a tun through the winter.

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

Mar 25, 21 8:14

Post #13 of 21 (1069 views)

NordicSkier wrote:

boobooaboo wrote:

I can't stand in-between winters.

Unfortunately, with climate change, our winters have become very challenging.
Last year sucked to start, and then was the best end of year ever.
This year was very dry and we went months with barely a skiff of new snow.
The past couple of years mid-winter rain has turned the snow into a skating rink.
I love skiing but it can be so challenging!!

The last few years have been miserable here in southern New England. Even with 70" of snow, I only got out once. It seemed to snow early in the week and melt by the weekend...

Last year was worse, less than 45" of snow, I got zero days in.

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Mar 25, 21 9:58

Post #14 of 21 (1052 views)

Fleck wrote:

Where are you located?

C'mon Steve, you know my real identity.

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Mar 25, 21 11:53

Post #15 of 21 (1032 views)

Even when I was a competitive skier many years ago throughout my 20’s & 30’s, my best triathlon race seasons were seemingly following a solid winter of skiing. I’ve had a few similar years of heavy skiing since & those too were my best seasons in TRI. Seems to be a superb supplement for triathlon.

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Mar 25, 21 12:12

Post #16 of 21 (1023 views)

Nice post!

I haven't raced a triathlon in 6 years now, but I took up XC ski 3 years ago when my wife and I decided we would winter in Colorado.

So far I have concentrated on classic, but just yesterday bought a full skate setup for wifey and I. First 10k skate was faster than my fastest ever 10k classic.. I knew they were faster, but shocked by how MUCH faster.

This year I upped my mileage, and with ten days to go before the nordic center closes have 1250 Miles of classic. Culminating last weekend with a 98 mile classic ski during a 24 hour race in Leadvill CO.

I hope it transfers overy nicely to cycling, as we have lots of longer rides scheduled this summer (no more races though. More riding with a credit card and a change of clothes and seeing where we end up). Or , riding down east to get donuts, and then jumping on the train to get home.

XC ski has quickly become my favotire endurance sport. Its low impact, like cycling, but without cars. And the scenary (at least out here in the rockies) is unreal. It will be tough for me to

Austin Hardy -

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Mar 26, 21 7:05

Post #17 of 21 (958 views)

Thanks for the post! Love the pic!

It's funny, I was thinking about this while I was skiing last. It's a vicious circle. I need to have time on skis to really get out over it and ride a flat ski. I spend more time on skis and my knee hurts (unless I classic). So I do more classic and when I do skate I'm not on a flat ski and it continues. The only races that I do are classic ones as well, so I just stick to kicking.

I've been skiing for years before skate skiing was even a thing so I don't mind classic especially with new snow and -6!

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [Durhamskier] [ In reply to ]

Mar 26, 21 8:49

Post #18 of 21 (943 views)

My favorite ski workout is to use classic poles and skate skis. Best/ worst of both worlds. Double pole everything & no pole the hills. Of course, running uphill on classics or V2 all hills tends to set the muscles on fire, too...
And by the time we get technique & ski fitness nailed down the ski season is over :(

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [speedyturtle] [ In reply to ]

Mar 26, 21 8:55

Post #19 of 21 (942 views)

I do like that by the time the season starts to wind down it's warm during the day and then below freezing at night so it's super fast and some pretty fun skiing plus you have the fitness to really enjoy it!

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [speedyturtle] [ In reply to ]

Mar 26, 21 13:01

Post #20 of 21 (919 views)

speedyturtle wrote:

My favorite ski workout is to use classic poles and skate skis. Best/ worst of both worlds. Double pole everything & no pole the hills. Of course, running uphill on classics or V2 all hills tends to set the muscles on fire, too...
And by the time we get technique & ski fitness nailed down the ski season is over :(

Hey I am not getting the visualization of classic poles on skate skis. When I do that, I end up squatting and sitting back and developing bad habits. You can't get into the right pole plant with enough forward lean from the ankles up where you are hanging off the handles of your poles while initiating a crunch to fall into the next stride....you just end up squatting backwards like a hockey player...at least that is what happens at my end!

Re: Nordic Skiing To Cycling [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Mar 26, 21 14:05

Post #21 of 21 (903 views)

I double pole in classic tracks with the skate skis. If falling behind/ out the back hips may be going too far behind skis? Are skiers arms too far from body? Or hip maybe not truly over ski when starting the glide? Is skier bringing heels back together at end of each glide/stride, or shorting out the glide?
A hundred tiny things, like trying to get better swim technique.

I don’t hang off my poles anymore. Used to, like I was told by everyone. But I found there’s a teeny pause in my initial “mash into the snow” movement. Now I focus on “fast ankles” and “snap the wrist” (once my hands get to my thighs) to get back to the top and start a new pole cycle. I do the compression, but not a lot of lower back/ hip action. It’s a faster tempo, like mashing the pedals vs faster rpm. I do that for classic and just match hand speed to my ankle flexion/ extension when skating.

Everybody skis different, and it’s fun to talk technique, but it’s like talking swim technique. Everybody’s path is a little different to the same destination.

Happy skiing!

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