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make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage?
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i typically like to add a couple of super easy pace 3 mile runs a week to supplement my scheduled runs to up my weekly mileage.

sometimes, however, when i have a really time crunched week those runs will wind up occupying time that my scheduled swims would, and said swims don’t get done (swims are done mostly on a vasa erg).

not focusing on my missed swims, completely from a running standpoint, is there any benefit / detriment in simply tacking on some easy pace stuff onto my scheduled runs to get more mileage in, or is it “better” to tack on shorter easy runs and not have those scheduled runs longer?

80/20 Endurance Ambassador
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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It's a stronger training effect to tack on easy miles to the end of a long run. So if you are focusing on training 'harder', that would be the better way to do it.

Keep in mind though, with SBR, that might not be a good thing, especially if you've ramped up enough to feel that deep leg fatigue over the week. In that case, adding the mileage in the separate situation would be better, until you can even add it onto the long run.

I wouldn't however break up your single long run into several easy runs as an already low-mileage triathlete. You will lose the entire only long run stimulus of your week and lose your adaptation to long-run loading on the legs.
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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tack on easy extra distance to existing runs, tack on transition runs to rides (reduce length of ride by 15 minutes almost never kills the quality of ride, but adds 15 min of useful running), add some short runs into your week 15 min of jogging before going to bed or as a warmup before bike or swim intervals.
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
It's a stronger training effect to tack on easy miles to the end of a long run. So if you are focusing on training 'harder', that would be the better way to do it.

Keep in mind though, with SBR, that might not be a good thing, especially if you've ramped up enough to feel that deep leg fatigue over the week. In that case, adding the mileage in the separate situation would be better, until you can even add it onto the long run.

I wouldn't however break up your single long run into several easy runs as an already low-mileage triathlete. You will lose the entire only long run stimulus of your week and lose your adaptation to long-run loading on the legs.

I tend to agree with you, but I recently listened to a Matt Dixon Purple Patch Podcast episode where he actually recommended sometimes breaking up the long run into shorter “cluster runs”. Basically running less mileage, more frequently in a certain period of time. Supposedly the training stimulus is the same, but injury risk and risk of burnout/boredom are lessened. I haven’t tried it yet, but found it interesting.
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [Parkland] [ In reply to ]
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Parkland wrote:
lightheir wrote:
It's a stronger training effect to tack on easy miles to the end of a long run. So if you are focusing on training 'harder', that would be the better way to do it.

Keep in mind though, with SBR, that might not be a good thing, especially if you've ramped up enough to feel that deep leg fatigue over the week. In that case, adding the mileage in the separate situation would be better, until you can even add it onto the long run.

I wouldn't however break up your single long run into several easy runs as an already low-mileage triathlete. You will lose the entire only long run stimulus of your week and lose your adaptation to long-run loading on the legs.


I tend to agree with you, but I recently listened to a Matt Dixon Purple Patch Podcast episode where he actually recommended sometimes breaking up the long run into shorter “cluster runs”. Basically running less mileage, more frequently in a certain period of time. Supposedly the training stimulus is the same, but injury risk and risk of burnout/boredom are lessened. I haven’t tried it yet, but found it interesting.

I also listen to Matt Dixon a bunch, but I suspect that he wouldn't recommend such a protocol to the OP, who I'm going to guess is not doing 15+ mile length long runs (yet) or running so much weekly volume (50+mpw, for example) that injury and burnout from running risk is significant.

I'm going to guess that Matt Dixon would also advise against breaking apart a weekly 90 minute run into 2 x 45 minute runs if you're a typical lower mileage run triathlete (<30mpw for example) as then you're losing long run stimulus, but I could be wrong about this. I've never heard any coach recommend breaking up runs of 90min or less unless you had to for some compelling reason. I also have his book, and while I'm just recalling from the last time I read it, I seem to recall he didn't mention anything about surprisingly breaking up long runs in a normal training schedule.
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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In Matt Dixon's book The Well-Built Triathlete, he does highlight a "hilly endurance split-run" as one of the types or run workouts in the "sustainable power" phase of the season (p. 206). The workout "improves muscular endurance" and is split to "reduce muscular damage." 35-50 minutes in the morning and 45-75 minutes in the evening.
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
It's a stronger training effect to tack on easy miles to the end of a long run. So if you are focusing on training 'harder', that would be the better way to do it.

Keep in mind though, with SBR, that might not be a good thing, especially if you've ramped up enough to feel that deep leg fatigue over the week. In that case, adding the mileage in the separate situation would be better, until you can even add it onto the long run.

I wouldn't however break up your single long run into several easy runs as an already low-mileage triathlete. You will lose the entire only long run stimulus of your week and lose your adaptation to long-run loading on the legs.

This is flat out wrong. Why tack on milage when a little fatigued? LETS GET OURSELVES INJURED! Seriously... The above is very poor advice.

The best thing you can do is run more frequently and with this, you will run with greater efficiency. Run often, run fresh. If you could split every training run into two, you would be better off.
Don't run with crap form.
When you are fresh, you run with better form. It's that simple.

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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]
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colinlaughery wrote:
The best thing you can do is run more frequently and with this, you will run with greater efficiency. Run often, run fresh. If you could split every training run into two, you would be better off.
Don't run with crap form.
When you are fresh, you run with better form. It's that simple.

Well that is overly simplistic. So if you had a time crunched triathlete training 10 hours a week, of which they spent say 4 hours on the run, you really think it is better to run 8x30mins instead of 1 long run and 2 or 3 shorter runs? I don't think I'd like to be your athlete come race day, trying to perform well over 10km, a half marathon, or marathon distance having only ever done lots of short training runs.
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]
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This is essentially what Barryp's running method recommends. On the other hand, I see many recommendations based on assumptions the OP never made. It is not about splitting scheduled runs, but adding a couple of easy runs to *either* the end of scheduled runs, or do them separately. I would say the latter is better if starting injury free is a priority.
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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i prob should have posted initially what my current running is looking like.

i run 80/20 endurance plans, currently on my 4th round of 70.3. i feel the only thing their plans lack is some run volume, so i up the mileage from what they prescribe. their plans typically have 4 runs a week, and doing the higher volume 70.3 plans, the most i think i remember seeing is around 28 or so miles week. i may be wrong on that but its not as much as i want.

im currently up to around 34 miles / week or so by upping Z1 mileage on top of what the runs already have and adding in one or two slow paced 3 mile runs. long run day i always shoot for a 13.1 run because i like the idea of running a half mostly every week (unless its an easy week, which ill just do the prescribed easy volume) but also to add in a few more miles to get the weekly total up.

80/20 Endurance Ambassador
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve done pretty much what you are suggesting in adding one or two 3mile type runs while doing the 8020 plan and have found it to be a great training stimulus for me.. as some others have suggested, i do try to add these short runs while having ‘fresh legs’ ... also i do my best to keep those runs in Z1 HR (maybe some consider junk miles) .... fwiw, i do really enjoy the 8020 training.
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]
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colinlaughery wrote:
lightheir wrote:
It's a stronger training effect to tack on easy miles to the end of a long run. So if you are focusing on training 'harder', that would be the better way to do it.

Keep in mind though, with SBR, that might not be a good thing, especially if you've ramped up enough to feel that deep leg fatigue over the week. In that case, adding the mileage in the separate situation would be better, until you can even add it onto the long run.

I wouldn't however break up your single long run into several easy runs as an already low-mileage triathlete. You will lose the entire only long run stimulus of your week and lose your adaptation to long-run loading on the legs.


This is flat out wrong. Why tack on milage when a little fatigued? LETS GET OURSELVES INJURED! Seriously... The above is very poor advice.

The best thing you can do is run more frequently and with this, you will run with greater efficiency. Run often, run fresh. If you could split every training run into two, you would be better off.
Don't run with crap form.
When you are fresh, you run with better form. It's that simple.


No, I am definitely right. It's one thing if you are pushing your limits (OP might be, but he is the judge of that.) It's another if you are taking a regularly schedule LR and chopping it up, especially if it's the ONLY LR of your week for a triathlete in the <30mpw range.

If you cannot handle a 90 minute LR because of injury, you have to build up to it, but even then, you shouldn't be taking the LR that you can handle and breaking it up just to 'be fresh every run'. It's critical for good running to build up load-bearing at distance for the legs, even as a short-course triathlete.
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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damon.lebeouf wrote:
i prob should have posted initially what my current running is looking like.

i run 80/20 endurance plans, currently on my 4th round of 70.3. i feel the only thing their plans lack is some run volume, so i up the mileage from what they prescribe. their plans typically have 4 runs a week, and doing the higher volume 70.3 plans, the most i think i remember seeing is around 28 or so miles week. i may be wrong on that but its not as much as i want.

im currently up to around 34 miles / week or so by upping Z1 mileage on top of what the runs already have and adding in one or two slow paced 3 mile runs. long run day i always shoot for a 13.1 run because i like the idea of running a half mostly every week (unless its an easy week, which ill just do the prescribed easy volume) but also to add in a few more miles to get the weekly total up.


I have added run miles to the 80/20 plan that I'm on. I just tack on easy Z1 miles either to the end of the LR (preferred) which is 90 minutes in my case, or during the week. As I mentioned before, the z1 miles tacked on the LR amplify the endurance effect. (I wouldn't take on those miles in a marathon training plan where the LR is a lot longer, like 20 miles, and I'd also think twice if the LR was 2+hrs already.)

But no problem adding them either way - they aren't the critical miles, it's obviously the quality ones that are driving the progress. The Z1 miles added at the end of a LR are surprisingly hard though, if you're hitting the paces/effort recommended in the latter end of the plan. If done 10:00+/mile on them after running the LR at 7:30/mi pace.
Last edited by: lightheir: Mar 22, 21 6:13
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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One of the best data backed sources for training information for ultra running is the Science of Ultra Podcast (SOUP) with Shawn Bearden. There is so much information from the last many years that it couldn't be summarized in 100 pages. But one of the many nuggets I have gotten from SOUP is that there is little point in running < 30 minutes. That is the threshold (note, not an actual threshold) for when the stress of an easy run starts to trigger any meaningful physiologic adaptations. So, doing 15 minutes of light running or a random 3 easy miles on its own probably isn't actually gaining much for most already trained athletes. If you want those extra few miles to produce beneficial adaptations, its better to them to another run- as long as that total run is still <3 hours. By around 3 hrs of running the adaptation response flattens off a lot and the risk/benefit skyrockets.
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [IM-Yeti] [ In reply to ]
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IM-Yeti wrote:
One of the best data backed sources for training information for ultra running is the Science of Ultra Podcast (SOUP) with Shawn Bearden. There is so much information from the last many years that it couldn't be summarized in 100 pages. But one of the many nuggets I have gotten from SOUP is that there is little point in running < 30 minutes. That is the threshold (note, not an actual threshold) for when the stress of an easy run starts to trigger any meaningful physiologic adaptations. So, doing 15 minutes of light running or a random 3 easy miles on its own probably isn't actually gaining much for most already trained athletes. If you want those extra few miles to produce beneficial adaptations, its better to them to another run- as long as that total run is still <3 hours. By around 3 hrs of running the adaptation response flattens off a lot and the risk/benefit skyrockets.

Also noted in Daniel's Running Formula to have an E run be at least 30min as well

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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]
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That is very interesting...I hadn't heard about the 30 minute minimum.
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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What are you trying to accomplish is the first thing you should ask yourself.

Running frequently is a great way to increase run fitness, economy and remain injury free (and fwiw I'd take the 8x30 min person over the 3x week runner everyday & twice on race day)

As duration extends, the physiological demands are greater even if you're running the same pace. As demands go up, your adaptation and abilities also increase. It's just somewhat different than 8x30 min. Running long periods of duration is also a good way to increase economy.

If you want to best of both worlds add in some short runs and tack on an extra 15-30 onto your long run.

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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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I've suggested "The Gary the Vale Ultramarathon Training Program" before, but it may not add the mileage you're looking for, quickly enough

The Plan goes like this: Every week, you add ONE mile to your long run; ideally, by going 1/2 a mile further on an out-n-back route, so you can look 800yds down the road and say to yourself "Self. We're going down to there next week. Just a little further, that's not so bad, right?"

Now, be warned ... to my knowledge, no one has actually started at zero [or 1, as the case may be] and stuck with it for an ENTIRE year, culminating in a 52-mile run [people tend to do silly things like sign up for races along the way, messing up the progression]

Good luck

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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To add to this thread, what we are talking about is mainly time management (inclusive of other sports and life stress load). In a perfect running only world you would simply run 2x per day every day of the week, take one day off and do a long run and call it done. But you have work and two other sports to juggle and maybe a family. So thats where all these slicing and dicing workarounds come in. Whatever allows you to add to total running workload without substantially cutting into bike quality or swimmming and leaves you enough energy and time for other aspects of life. There is no best solution this, it is what works in your life with your strengths and weaknesses.

It may just be as simple as eating less and being lighter for racing. One year when I broke 3 hrs in Boston, with 6 weeks to go I had to decide between running more, but I realized I was at my limit of running load, so I just focused on losing 7 lbs and that was the bigger than any additional running I could add (I went from 145 lbs down to 138 lbs). You can see why runners have so many eating disorders, but dammit being lighter works (until it does not).
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [trimike77] [ In reply to ]
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trimike77 wrote:
That is very interesting...I hadn't heard about the 30 minute minimum.

I guess that's why Dev set up the 30-minute minimum for 100/100?

Probably just a coincidence

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: make scheduled runs longer or adding smaller runs to get more weekly mileage? [IM-Yeti] [ In reply to ]
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IM-Yeti wrote:
one of the many nuggets I have gotten from SOUP is that there is little point in running < 30 minutes. That is the threshold (note, not an actual threshold) for when the stress of an easy run starts to trigger any meaningful physiologic adaptations.


So not only does the First Mile always suck, maybe the first THREE Miles [or more] always suck, as well?

https://vitals.lifehacker.com/...let-it-go-1752457839

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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