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Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes
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I have been running tubeless is my Man Bike and Gravel Bike forever because of low pressure and it saves from pinch flat, but I would say 1/4 of the time I get puncture it does not seal and occasionally will not seal with a plug and you need a boot or a tube

I can change a flat with a tube on my tri bike in like 2 minutes, So why would I change to tubeless for Races?

This is a serious question as I am wondering if there is a benefit I am missing out on or is this just disc brake marketing hype



.

Yellowfin Endurance Coaching and Bike Fits
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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surfNJmatt wrote:
I have been running tubeless is my Man Bike and Gravel Bike forever because of low pressure and it saves from pinch flat, but I would say 1/4 of the time I get puncture it does not seal and occasionally will not seal with a plug and you need a boot or a tube

I can change a flat with a tube on my tri bike in like 2 minutes, So why would I change to tubeless for Races?

This is a serious question as I am wondering if there is a benefit I am missing out on or is this just disc brake marketing hype



.

If BRR and places are to be believed, there are a handful of watts in the tubeless race tires over tubed even with latex.
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
If BRR and places are to be believed, there are a handful of watts in the tubeless race tires over tubed even with latex.

From BRR: https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/...ss-latex-butyl-tubes


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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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surfNJmatt wrote:
I have been running tubeless is my Man Bike and Gravel Bike forever because of low pressure and it saves from pinch flat, but I would say 1/4 of the time I get puncture it does not seal and occasionally will not seal with a plug and you need a boot or a tube

I can change a flat with a tube on my tri bike in like 2 minutes, So why would I change to tubeless for Races?

This is a serious question as I am wondering if there is a benefit I am missing out on or is this just disc brake marketing hype
.


Reduced chance of having to stop for a flat. By your own math, 3/4 of the time it seals. That, alone, would be worth it to me.
Last edited by: trail: Mar 19, 21 7:34
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [trail] [ In reply to ]
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surfNJmatt wrote:
I have been running tubeless is my Man Bike and Gravel Bike forever because of low pressure and it saves from pinch flat, but I would say 1/4 of the time I get puncture it does not seal and occasionally will not seal with a plug and you need a boot or a tube

I can change a flat with a tube on my tri bike in like 2 minutes, So why would I change to tubeless for Races?

This is a serious question as I am wondering if there is a benefit I am missing out on or is this just disc brake marketing hype
.




Timely post as I just had my first flat on TUBELESS tires after only a few rides since going to TL. New bike with new ENVE 7.8 disc tubeless and flat happened at furthest point from home. Would not seal. PITA to get TL tire off the wheel and then convert to a tube setup for the rest of the ride. Just ruins the vibe of the entire ride. Just decided to move back to non-tubeless tires and tubes as I can fix a flat in a couple minutes. I still run TL for my mtn bike though since I run those tires about 15-18psi.

Cheers, Ray
Last edited by: TX83: Mar 19, 21 8:21
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [TX83] [ In reply to ]
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TX83 wrote:
Timely post as I just had my first flat on TUBELESS tires after only a few rides since going to TL. New bike with new ENVE 7.8 disc tubeless and flat happened at furthest point from home. Would not seal. PITA to get TL tire off the wheel and then convert to a tube setup for the rest of the ride. Just ruins the vibe of the entire ride. Just decided to move back to non-tubeless tires and tubes as I can fix a flat in a couple minutes. I still run TL for my mtn bike though since I run those tires about 15-18psi.

Was it a gp5000? I dread having to put a tube in roadside on those things. Anyhow, I think you have to look at the numbers and decide, I'd guess . . . 50% less chance to get a flat on tubeless vs tubed. 50% of that time the time spent fixing it (simple reflate or reflate+plug) is comparable to tube change or even faster than a tube change. That other 50%, depending on tire/wheel combo might be long or even impossible roadside. If your odds of getting a flat on any given ride are ~5% with tubes, then . . .

Time spent fixing a tubeless setup per ride: .5 x .05 x (.5 x 7min + .5 x 20min) = .34min per ride
Time spent fixing a tubed setup: .05 x 7min = .35min per ride

More or less the same. You can play with the numbers as you see fit. If you really can change the tube in 2min then you are definitely going to be better off with tubes. I'm doubtful on that speed once you include actually getting the tube out, packing up the old one etc., but whatever.

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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ericlambi wrote:
TX83 wrote:
Timely post as I just had my first flat on TUBELESS tires after only a few rides since going to TL. New bike with new ENVE 7.8 disc tubeless and flat happened at furthest point from home. Would not seal. PITA to get TL tire off the wheel and then convert to a tube setup for the rest of the ride. Just ruins the vibe of the entire ride. Just decided to move back to non-tubeless tires and tubes as I can fix a flat in a couple minutes. I still run TL for my mtn bike though since I run those tires about 15-18psi.


Was it a gp5000? I dread having to put a tube in roadside on those things. Anyhow, I think you have to look at the numbers and decide, I'd guess . . . 50% less chance to get a flat on tubeless vs tubed. 50% of that time the time spent fixing it (simple reflate or reflate+plug) is comparable to tube change or even faster than a tube change. That other 50%, depending on tire/wheel combo might be long or even impossible roadside. If your odds of getting a flat on any given ride are ~5% with tubes, then . . .

Time spent fixing a tubeless setup per ride: .5 x .05 x (.5 x 7min + .5 x 20min) = .34min per ride
Time spent fixing a tubed setup: .05 x 7min = .35min per ride

More or less the same. You can play with the numbers as you see fit. If you really can change the tube in 2min then you are definitely going to be better off with tubes. I'm doubtful on that speed once you include actually getting the tube out, packing up the old one etc., but whatever.

Yup a GP5000TL. That damn tire is a PITA to get off the wheel and vice versa. And the 2min is obviously not total time from bike dismount, to getting tube out of spares kit, etc. It's the time to take out the old one and reinsert the new one when using a non tubeless GP5000.

Cheers, Ray
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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ericlambi wrote:
TX83 wrote:
Timely post as I just had my first flat on TUBELESS tires after only a few rides since going to TL. New bike with new ENVE 7.8 disc tubeless and flat happened at furthest point from home. Would not seal. PITA to get TL tire off the wheel and then convert to a tube setup for the rest of the ride. Just ruins the vibe of the entire ride. Just decided to move back to non-tubeless tires and tubes as I can fix a flat in a couple minutes. I still run TL for my mtn bike though since I run those tires about 15-18psi.


Was it a gp5000? I dread having to put a tube in roadside on those things. Anyhow, I think you have to look at the numbers and decide, I'd guess . . . 50% less chance to get a flat on tubeless vs tubed. 50% of that time the time spent fixing it (simple reflate or reflate+plug) is comparable to tube change or even faster than a tube change. That other 50%, depending on tire/wheel combo might be long or even impossible roadside. If your odds of getting a flat on any given ride are ~5% with tubes, then . . .

Time spent fixing a tubeless setup per ride: .5 x .05 x (.5 x 7min + .5 x 20min) = .34min per ride
Time spent fixing a tubed setup: .05 x 7min = .35min per ride

More or less the same. You can play with the numbers as you see fit. If you really can change the tube in 2min then you are definitely going to be better off with tubes. I'm doubtful on that speed once you include actually getting the tube out, packing up the old one etc., but whatever.

Can't blame it specifically on the tire....it's a combo of the rim/tire setup.
I'm running Reynolds Aero tubeless wheels (2 different sets) and Contil GP5000TL's are super easy on and off....easier than some non-tubeless tires I've used in the past. I had DT Swiss wheels prior, and Schwalbe Pro Ones were a nightmare on those wheels.

I just got a set of Zipp 303S's on a gravel bike, but might just have to see how the 5000TL's mount on them.
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [TX83] [ In reply to ]
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TX83 wrote:
surfNJmatt wrote:
I have been running tubeless is my Man Bike and Gravel Bike forever because of low pressure and it saves from pinch flat, but I would say 1/4 of the time I get puncture it does not seal and occasionally will not seal with a plug and you need a boot or a tube

I can change a flat with a tube on my tri bike in like 2 minutes, So why would I change to tubeless for Races?

This is a serious question as I am wondering if there is a benefit I am missing out on or is this just disc brake marketing hype
.




Timely post as I just had my first flat on TUBELESS tires after only a few rides since going to TL. New bike with new ENVE 7.8 disc tubeless and flat happened at furthest point from home. Would not seal. PITA to get TL tire off the wheel and then convert to a tube setup for the rest of the ride. Just ruins the vibe of the entire ride. Just decided to move back to non-tubeless tires and tubes as I can fix a flat in a couple minutes. I still run TL for my mtn bike though since I run those tires about 15-18psi.

Did you try plugging it first?

Also, seems like difficulty to mount/remove is BOTH tire AND rim dependent. For example, I'm running GP5000TLs (32c) on Boyd Altamont Ceramic rims, and I can mount/remove by hand.

That said, I see nothing wrong with sticking with tubes (latex) and regular clincher tires for primarily road use.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
TX83 wrote:
surfNJmatt wrote:
I have been running tubeless is my Man Bike and Gravel Bike forever because of low pressure and it saves from pinch flat, but I would say 1/4 of the time I get puncture it does not seal and occasionally will not seal with a plug and you need a boot or a tube

I can change a flat with a tube on my tri bike in like 2 minutes, So why would I change to tubeless for Races?

This is a serious question as I am wondering if there is a benefit I am missing out on or is this just disc brake marketing hype
.




Timely post as I just had my first flat on TUBELESS tires after only a few rides since going to TL. New bike with new ENVE 7.8 disc tubeless and flat happened at furthest point from home. Would not seal. PITA to get TL tire off the wheel and then convert to a tube setup for the rest of the ride. Just ruins the vibe of the entire ride. Just decided to move back to non-tubeless tires and tubes as I can fix a flat in a couple minutes. I still run TL for my mtn bike though since I run those tires about 15-18psi.


Did you try plugging it first?

Also, seems like difficulty to mount/remove is BOTH tire AND rim dependent. For example, I'm running GP5000TLs (32c) on Boyd Altamont Ceramic rims, and I can mount/remove by hand.

That said, I see nothing wrong with sticking with tubes (latex) and regular clincher tires for primarily road use.

I couldn't plug since it was a sidewall cut.

Good point on the wheel dependent nature of this puzzle. These ENVE wheels are a bucket of suck with TL tires. I'm also just used to tire/tube setup on my race bike (and not going to buy new wheels to go TL) so it just make the "feel" the same across road bikes. I might give it another chance down the road, but not now after the last debacle. haha

Cheers, Ray
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [MKirk] [ In reply to ]
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I put GP5000TLs on Mavic 470 tubeless ready rims on Sunday and I dread the day they have to come off for any reason. I have years of experience changing tires on a bike and never use the lever to do anything but remove the old tire. Not this time. I had to use a lever to simply get the first bead over the rim. To get the second bead over the rim I had to use 3 levers and still took nearly 45 minutes. I have no idea how I would get them off if I have a flat.

On the plus side I inflated the tires with a hand pump and did not have to work very hard to do it. They literally held most of their air after initial installation. About a dozen strokes on a standard floor pump and the bead snapped into place. After I put the sealant in and pumped them up to max suggested pressure I had one small leak that immediately sealed. They will get their first ride on Saturday if the weather holds.

On tubed tires I averaged less than 2 flats a year, almost always at the end of the season when the tires have about 2500 miles on them. I ran Specialized 2Bliss tires last year and did not have a flat in 2700 miles, so hopefully I will just cut these things off next March. If something happens and I get a flat I will probably just call AA.

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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AutomaticJack wrote:
If something happens and I get a flat I will probably just call AA.
haha, my thoughts exactly. Except in my case, it was my wife bringing me a spare wheel from another bike.

Cheers, Ray
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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AutomaticJack wrote:
I put GP5000TLs on Mavic 470 tubeless ready rims on Sunday and I dread the day they have to come off for any reason. I have years of experience changing tires on a bike and never use the lever to do anything but remove the old tire. Not this time. I had to use a lever to simply get the first bead over the rim. To get the second bead over the rim I had to use 3 levers and still took nearly 45 minutes. I have no idea how I would get them off if I have a flat.

On the plus side I inflated the tires with a hand pump and did not have to work very hard to do it. They literally held most of their air after initial installation. About a dozen strokes on a standard floor pump and the bead snapped into place. After I put the sealant in and pumped them up to max suggested pressure I had one small leak that immediately sealed. They will get their first ride on Saturday if the weather holds.

On tubed tires I averaged less than 2 flats a year, almost always at the end of the season when the tires have about 2500 miles on them. I ran Specialized 2Bliss tires last year and did not have a flat in 2700 miles, so hopefully I will just cut these things off next March. If something happens and I get a flat I will probably just call AA.


It can be hit or miss with tubeless.......
My personal preference is that if a tire/rim combo was that difficult to mount/remove, not sure if I would deal with tubeless. I would dread that day of getting a flat that would not seal......probably easier just to call for help and a ride home. I'm not going that route - ever! Main reason I sold my DT Swiss wheels.....I was never getting a replacement tube in them if ever needed so it would be switching back to tubes.....but I decided to try Reynolds wheels and that is where I am right now. With the 5000TL's, on by hand and off with a cheap plastic lever.
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [TX83] [ In reply to ]
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Until the specifications are set its usually a hit or miss with what tires work for each rims. Almost better off digging some research in what other people have had luck with. For Enve's ive seen people have luck with schwalbe and Vittoria (even though its cotton, since its tubeless it somehow works according to Enve) I have Enve wheels too and just got the Enve SES tires and can mount them by hand. If were looking at BRR you lose a watt or 2 compared to the likes of a gp5000 or Schwalbe pro one TT/ Vittoria corsa speed but since they both come from the same comapany and designed to fit figured id give it a try. Plus again going from BRR its "claimed" to have better puncture resistance than all of those and even the lightest. First couple rides have been good. Coming from GP5000 which on ENves (I have the 5.6) are pretty damn hard to get on (even the non tubeless). So from a time perspective, if I have to change a flat it takes the same time as a non tubeless and I run the benefit of lower RR and better flat protection. to make matters better for tubeless I just added the Enve tubeless blowoff screws which make it even safer by which if there was a leak it goes slowly out the valve and not filling up the rim....

https://www.strava.com/athletes/11645943 https://www.instagram.com/timeforicecream/
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [DylanD] [ In reply to ]
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DylanD wrote:
Until the specifications are set its usually a hit or miss with what tires work for each rims. Almost better off digging some research in what other people have had luck with. For Enve's ive seen people have luck with schwalbe and Vittoria (even though its cotton, since its tubeless it somehow works according to Enve) I have Enve wheels too and just got the Enve SES tires and can mount them by hand. If were looking at BRR you lose a watt or 2 compared to the likes of a gp5000 or Schwalbe pro one TT/ Vittoria corsa speed but since they both come from the same comapany and designed to fit figured id give it a try. Plus again going from BRR its "claimed" to have better puncture resistance than all of those and even the lightest. First couple rides have been good. Coming from GP5000 which on ENves (I have the 5.6) are pretty damn hard to get on (even the non tubeless). So from a time perspective, if I have to change a flat it takes the same time as a non tubeless and I run the benefit of lower RR and better flat protection. to make matters better for tubeless I just added the Enve tubeless blowoff screws which make it even safer by which if there was a leak it goes slowly out the valve and not filling up the rim....
Thanks for the info! I think I'll get some of the ENVE tires ordered and give them a try. If it becomes easier to work with then, I'm good going back to give it another try.

Cheers, Ray
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [TX83] [ In reply to ]
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I run GP5000 TL on Roval CL50. I can mount it with my fingers and I work in IT :)

I have had one flat that did not seal ... because the sealant had dried out 🙈

I don’t think TL works well on the road if you are running 23mm tires at 8bar. FWIW, I run 28mm at 4.5bar (78kg)
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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AutomaticJack wrote:
If something happens and I get a flat I will probably just call AA.

Tubeless road tires drive me to drink too...

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Tubeless Slower to repair then tubes [DylanD] [ In reply to ]
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Indeed the tire rim/combo’s are hit and miss.
I can get the GP5000TL on DT SWISS ARC’S, FFWD, Zipp’s and on the Reynold wheels.
But on Enve’s almost impossible in a reasonable time, Ku wheels totally impossible whatsoever.

Jeroen

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands
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