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Re: Cancel culture is not real [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
alex_korr wrote:
chaparral wrote:
alex_korr wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Interesting take on 'cancel culture':

https://www.cnn.com/...lity-trnd/index.html

TLDR: 'cancel culture' is not real.


That's kinda questionable. In the case of ebay, they have their members sell MAGA hats, and Biden hats. One of those has to be rude or offensive to about 40% of the population. They also sell Playboy magazines, sex toys, and a million other rude or offensive materials. Here, a simple search for "racist collectibles" gives plenty of outright racist collectibles, but they're still selling these.


I think that eBay will soon find that it is easy to hop on the wokeness treadmill, but impossible to get off. Once you cave in to something that publicly visible, you will be deluged with demands: "If THAT was banned, then what about THIS?"


Can you explain what you are talking about here?

Do you think ebay should NOT have a policy of banning racist things from being sold?


They can have a policy of banning whatever they want. They're private corporation with their own platform rules.
My point is that they need to be ready to deal with people pushing them to deplatform lots and lots of other product categories that may be upsetting to some. Eventually this will start biting into their revenue stream. That's what they are up against now that they hopped on the said treadmill.


Haven't they had the same policy for basically all their existence? Why do you think it is a problem now? Do you have any examples of their policy being a problem?



It's one thing to have a policy saying that you cannot sell t-shirts with Hitler on them (which was btw fairly lightly enforced until perhaps 2015-16 or so).
It's a different story to ban books by a beloved children's book author (Dr Seuss ffs) - and have that ban be very public. I am not going to argue the merits of that ban, that's dependent on one's worldview.

"There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches." --Ray Bradbury

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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alex_korr wrote:
chaparral wrote:
alex_korr wrote:
chaparral wrote:
alex_korr wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Interesting take on 'cancel culture':

https://www.cnn.com/...lity-trnd/index.html

TLDR: 'cancel culture' is not real.


That's kinda questionable. In the case of ebay, they have their members sell MAGA hats, and Biden hats. One of those has to be rude or offensive to about 40% of the population. They also sell Playboy magazines, sex toys, and a million other rude or offensive materials. Here, a simple search for "racist collectibles" gives plenty of outright racist collectibles, but they're still selling these.


I think that eBay will soon find that it is easy to hop on the wokeness treadmill, but impossible to get off. Once you cave in to something that publicly visible, you will be deluged with demands: "If THAT was banned, then what about THIS?"


Can you explain what you are talking about here?

Do you think ebay should NOT have a policy of banning racist things from being sold?


They can have a policy of banning whatever they want. They're private corporation with their own platform rules.
My point is that they need to be ready to deal with people pushing them to deplatform lots and lots of other product categories that may be upsetting to some. Eventually this will start biting into their revenue stream. That's what they are up against now that they hopped on the said treadmill.


Haven't they had the same policy for basically all their existence? Why do you think it is a problem now? Do you have any examples of their policy being a problem?



It's one thing to have a policy saying that you cannot sell t-shirts with Hitler on them (which was btw fairly lightly enforced until perhaps 2015-16 or so).
It's a different story to ban books by a beloved children's book author (Dr Seuss ffs) - and have that ban be very public. I am not going to argue the merits of that ban, that's dependent on one's worldview.

"There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches." --Ray Bradbury

So you are saying that eBay should not ban something for violating their guidelines, when the intellectual property own owner says it violates ebay's policy?

You actually think that the owners of the intellectual property are not a good judge if it violates ebay's policy?
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
alex_korr wrote:
chaparral wrote:
alex_korr wrote:
chaparral wrote:
alex_korr wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Interesting take on 'cancel culture':

https://www.cnn.com/...lity-trnd/index.html

TLDR: 'cancel culture' is not real.


That's kinda questionable. In the case of ebay, they have their members sell MAGA hats, and Biden hats. One of those has to be rude or offensive to about 40% of the population. They also sell Playboy magazines, sex toys, and a million other rude or offensive materials. Here, a simple search for "racist collectibles" gives plenty of outright racist collectibles, but they're still selling these.


I think that eBay will soon find that it is easy to hop on the wokeness treadmill, but impossible to get off. Once you cave in to something that publicly visible, you will be deluged with demands: "If THAT was banned, then what about THIS?"


Can you explain what you are talking about here?

Do you think ebay should NOT have a policy of banning racist things from being sold?


They can have a policy of banning whatever they want. They're private corporation with their own platform rules.
My point is that they need to be ready to deal with people pushing them to deplatform lots and lots of other product categories that may be upsetting to some. Eventually this will start biting into their revenue stream. That's what they are up against now that they hopped on the said treadmill.


Haven't they had the same policy for basically all their existence? Why do you think it is a problem now? Do you have any examples of their policy being a problem?



It's one thing to have a policy saying that you cannot sell t-shirts with Hitler on them (which was btw fairly lightly enforced until perhaps 2015-16 or so).
It's a different story to ban books by a beloved children's book author (Dr Seuss ffs) - and have that ban be very public. I am not going to argue the merits of that ban, that's dependent on one's worldview.

"There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches." --Ray Bradbury


So you are saying that eBay should not ban something for violating their guidelines, when the intellectual property own owner says it violates ebay's policy?

You actually think that the owners of the intellectual property are not a good judge if it violates ebay's policy?


Just as an aside, continuously responding with a series of questions is annoying, and it cheapens the conversation. Maybe that's your goal though. That said, I'll honor your questions with a follow up question.

"the intellectual property own owner says it violates ebay's policy" - what are you referring to? I am assuming that it is in the context of the Dr Seuss's ban.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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alex_korr wrote:
Just as an aside, continuously responding with a series of questions is annoying, and it cheapens the conversation. Maybe that's your goal though. That said, I'll honor your questions with a follow up question.

"the intellectual property own owner says it violates ebay's policy" - what are you referring to? I am assuming that it is in the context of the Dr Seuss's ban.

Yes, since Dr Seuss was the example you mentioned as being an issue with Ebay's policy.
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
alex_korr wrote:

Just as an aside, continuously responding with a series of questions is annoying, and it cheapens the conversation. Maybe that's your goal though. That said, I'll honor your questions with a follow up question.

"the intellectual property own owner says it violates ebay's policy" - what are you referring to? I am assuming that it is in the context of the Dr Seuss's ban.


Yes, since Dr Seuss was the example you mentioned as being an issue with Ebay's policy.

The foundation stopped publishing these books. To my knowledge, they never explicitly stated that it cannot be sold on eBay due to the policy violations - but perhaps I am wrong. More likely that it is you "connecting the dots".

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
j p o wrote:
Slowman wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
TLDR: 'cancel culture' is not real.


cancel culture is absolutely real, and it's the single thing i most dislike from the left. however, it is a term that has been misappropriated by some on the right to object to the legitimate shaming of those who do shameful things.

the same thing happened with the term "fake news." trump called real news fake news and that's kind of how the power was taken out of the term. but it didn't erase the concept of the right coming up with what kelly anne famously called "alternative facts."

the right has its very obvious battle now, between trumpism and principled conservatism. but the left has its battle, between the traditional liberals and that unfortunate strain of the hyper-woke. we had a thread about renaming schools in SF, which happily (and predictably) did not happen, but the very fact that it was contemplated is evidence. when every president other than obama is unworthy to have a school named after him, well, there you go.


It might be real, but it is not what they have pretended it is. Most of it is people facing consequences for their actions.

If they want to complain about someone being cancelled look at instances where right right wing speakers have been scheduled and a mob turns out to keep the event from happening at all. Or where someone is "deplatformed". Not Parler, but where the mob decides someone cannot be allowed on FB or Twitter.

Those events are real and not good.

But now it has been warped so much as to be meaningless and any time someone even utters the word I want to smack them upside the head.


well, taking my example, who are we naming our HS after? not lincoln. not washington. not jefferson. not roosevelt (either of them). they're all unworthy of our praise and respect; only worth talking about as cautionary tales of people who we've naively lionized. if that's not cancel culture, what is it?

i have a theory. i think in 100 years we're going to largely be a vegetarian society. the idea of animals grown solely for the purpose of slaughter will be considered abhorrent by future generations. there are cancel culturists now, who're out there canceling people left and right, who will become famous, become elected, who will have elementary schools named after them, and 100 years from now the name will come right off the school because, while he might have been a non-meat-eater, he was not an anti-meat-eater. he stood idly by while meat was eaten. and then one could say sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander for that guy, but whomever uses that metaphor will be canceled for using a meat-eating metaphor.

I go with dumb.

People have a hard time differentiating a flawed ally from an enemy.

I don't actually disagree with you. My issue is that it has now been used as a defense when people are rightly being called out and facing appropriate consequence. And I have also seen it being taken as a badge of honor by people trying to take it too far.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
well, taking my example, who are we naming our HS after? not lincoln. not washington. not jefferson. not roosevelt (either of them). they're all unworthy of our praise and respect; only worth talking about as cautionary tales of people who we've naively lionized. if that's not cancel culture, what is it?

The irony is, most of us here as far as I know, are white or off-white people here discussing this. For me, sure, those folks (lincoln, washington, jefferson, et. al.) had some worthy attributes. But they also had some creepy/disgusting/evil attributes. I personally am ambivalent about them. But I have that luxury. If I was an black student attending, say, a Jefferson high school and, knowing that what Jefferson did with his slaves (sex with captive folks, etc.), I am pretty sure that I would not be so ambivalent. No, I would likely despise Jefferson.


Quote:
i have a theory. i think in 100 years we're going to largely be a vegetarian society. the idea of animals grown solely for the purpose of slaughter will be considered abhorrent by future generations. there are cancel culturists now, who're out there canceling people left and right, who will become famous, become elected, who will have elementary schools named after them, and 100 years from now the name will come right off the school because, while he might have been a non-meat-eater, he was not an anti-meat-eater. he stood idly by while meat was eaten. and then one could say sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander for that guy, but whomever uses that metaphor will be canceled for using a meat-eating metaphor.

This is a compelling metaphor. Is it also true that folks that are now eating meat (and especially factory farmed meats raised in conditions far, far worse than Auschwitz) are essentially the moral equivalent of slave owners of the past? If that is the case, does that knowledge motivate you to drop eating meat?



Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Mar 8, 21 14:02
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
alex_korr wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Interesting take on 'cancel culture':

https://www.cnn.com/...lity-trnd/index.html

TLDR: 'cancel culture' is not real.


That's kinda questionable. In the case of ebay, they have their members sell MAGA hats, and Biden hats. One of those has to be rude or offensive to about 40% of the population. They also sell Playboy magazines, sex toys, and a million other rude or offensive materials. Here, a simple search for "racist collectibles" gives plenty of outright racist collectibles, but they're still selling these.


I think that eBay will soon find that it is easy to hop on the wokeness treadmill, but impossible to get off. Once you cave in to something that publicly visible, you will be deluged with demands: "If THAT was banned, then what about THIS?"

Can you explain what you are talking about here?

Do you think ebay should NOT have a policy of banning racist things from being sold?

Can't you buy mein kemph on amazon?

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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Just a note. eBay can set their own policy agendas that are separated from the of dr suess.

Copyrights like a lot of IP stop being enforceable after the first sale.

Now. Dr suess did say they were stopping publishing because “ These books portray people in ways that are hurtful and wrong.” So if people have issues they have issues with dr suess.
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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alex_korr wrote:
chaparral wrote:
alex_korr wrote:

Just as an aside, continuously responding with a series of questions is annoying, and it cheapens the conversation. Maybe that's your goal though. That said, I'll honor your questions with a follow up question.

"the intellectual property own owner says it violates ebay's policy" - what are you referring to? I am assuming that it is in the context of the Dr Seuss's ban.


Yes, since Dr Seuss was the example you mentioned as being an issue with Ebay's policy.


The foundation stopped publishing these books. To my knowledge, they never explicitly stated that it cannot be sold on eBay due to the policy violations - but perhaps I am wrong. More likely that it is you "connecting the dots".

The foundation said that the books contain "racially insensitive imagery." Ebay does not allow the sale of "racially insensitive imagery".
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i have a theory. i think in 100 years we're going to largely be a vegetarian society. the idea of animals grown solely for the purpose of slaughter will be considered abhorrent by future generations. there are cancel culturists now, who're out there canceling people left and right, who will become famous, become elected, who will have elementary schools named after them, and 100 years from now the name will come right off the school because, while he might have been a non-meat-eater, he was not an anti-meat-eater. he stood idly by while meat was eaten. and then one could say sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander for that guy, but whomever uses that metaphor will be canceled for using a meat-eating metaphor.

I can’t tell if you dislike the outcome of your prediction. Is it wrong if our social mores change?

It is simply undeniable that social mores have undergone dramatic shifts in the course of 100 years. It seems to be trending in such a way that the rights of vulnerable things (minorities, women, children, animals) are becoming recognized.

I’m not willing to say that my assessment of morality is the final word. I was just regretting recently that I crate trained our puppy 4 years ago. He was an 8 week old puppy and I put him in a crate and put it in our basement so I wouldn’t have to hear him whine. In the morning, we took him out and loved him all day. Nighttime meant more crate-time.

I sleep with our dog now. We cuddle nonstop. I think it was cruel of me to put him in that crate. I wish I had put him in my bed back then. At the time, it seemed too hard. It seemed like the crate was the only way we could get any sleep. Dang it.

I look back on my children’s babyhood. Boy, I was tired. I felt really maxed out back then, but I probably could have done a better job and treated them with more humanity.

This is evolution. Each successive generation has higher expectations than the last. Thank God that we do. Change is inevitable. We can’t stagnate, so we might as well try to do better.

Can we do better by not rushing to judgment? Sure, let’s all call for good investigations & reasonable analysis. I support that.
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
chaparral wrote:
alex_korr wrote:
chaparral wrote:
alex_korr wrote:

Just as an aside, continuously responding with a series of questions is annoying, and it cheapens the conversation. Maybe that's your goal though. That said, I'll honor your questions with a follow up question.

"the intellectual property own owner says it violates ebay's policy" - what are you referring to? I am assuming that it is in the context of the Dr Seuss's ban.


Yes, since Dr Seuss was the example you mentioned as being an issue with Ebay's policy.


The foundation stopped publishing these books. To my knowledge, they never explicitly stated that it cannot be sold on eBay due to the policy violations - but perhaps I am wrong. More likely that it is you "connecting the dots".

The foundation said that the books contain "racially insensitive imagery." Ebay does not allow the sale of "racially insensitive imagery".

That's not exactly the same as the foundation stating that their products cannot be sold on Ebay. Splitting hairs, but still.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
This is a compelling metaphor. Is it also true that folks that are now eating meat (and especially factory farmed meats raised in conditions far, far worse than Auschwitz) are essentially the moral equivalent of slave owners of the past? If that is the case, does that knowledge motivate you to drop eating meat?

i don't know that it's the equivalent of auschwitz, or slavery, but to your question of my own motivation, yes, it does motivate me to stop eating meat. it does and it did. and i did.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [CallMeMaybe] [ In reply to ]
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CallMeMaybe wrote:
Slowman wrote:

i have a theory. i think in 100 years we're going to largely be a vegetarian society. the idea of animals grown solely for the purpose of slaughter will be considered abhorrent by future generations. there are cancel culturists now, who're out there canceling people left and right, who will become famous, become elected, who will have elementary schools named after them, and 100 years from now the name will come right off the school because, while he might have been a non-meat-eater, he was not an anti-meat-eater. he stood idly by while meat was eaten. and then one could say sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander for that guy, but whomever uses that metaphor will be canceled for using a meat-eating metaphor.


I can’t tell if you dislike the outcome of your prediction. Is it wrong if our social mores change?

It is simply undeniable that social mores have undergone dramatic shifts in the course of 100 years. It seems to be trending in such a way that the rights of vulnerable things (minorities, women, children, animals) are becoming recognized.

I’m not willing to say that my assessment of morality is the final word. I was just regretting recently that I crate trained our puppy 4 years ago. He was an 8 week old puppy and I put him in a crate and put it in our basement so I wouldn’t have to hear him whine. In the morning, we took him out and loved him all day. Nighttime meant more crate-time.

I sleep with our dog now. We cuddle nonstop. I think it was cruel of me to put him in that crate. I wish I had put him in my bed back then. At the time, it seemed too hard. It seemed like the crate was the only way we could get any sleep. Dang it.

I look back on my children’s babyhood. Boy, I was tired. I felt really maxed out back then, but I probably could have done a better job and treated them with more humanity.

This is evolution. Each successive generation has higher expectations than the last. Thank God that we do. Change is inevitable. We can’t stagnate, so we might as well try to do better.

Can we do better by not rushing to judgment? Sure, let’s all call for good investigations & reasonable analysis. I support that.

the point in my metaphor - which is more than a metaphor, approaching a prediction - is that very good, very honorable people are behaving in a way that will not be considered good and honorable a century from now. ralph northam got canceled by woke white people in virginia, but from what i can tell black people in virginia were largely forgiving of his college naivete. if you have have a blind spot to your bad behavior, then you have no malice when you perform the behavior. fred astaire thought he was honoring bill robinson when he performed in black face in swing time. now he's vilified for it.

what cancel culturists often fail to appreciate is motive. if you do the right thing (at the time) for the right reason, but it's the wrong thing as judged by a future generation, what should your penance be? if you run a farm, now, that gives your animals a great life until they're killed for food, what is society going to think if you a century from now? versus what society thinks of you now?

the point is, to be truly above reproach, you need to behave as society will eventually consider proper behavior, not what society currently considers proper behavior. that's a pretty high standard.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
This is a compelling metaphor. Is it also true that folks that are now eating meat (and especially factory farmed meats raised in conditions far, far worse than Auschwitz) are essentially the moral equivalent of slave owners of the past? If that is the case, does that knowledge motivate you to drop eating meat?


i don't know that it's the equivalent of auschwitz, or slavery, but to your question of my own motivation, yes, it does motivate me to stop eating meat. it does and it did. and i did.

Unfortunately, it is not the equivalent of auschwitz or slavery, it's much, much worse.


And hat's off to you about the dietary choices.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

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Re: Cancel culture is not real [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
the point is, to be truly above reproach, you need to behave as society will eventually consider proper behavior, not what society currently considers proper behavior. that's a pretty high standard.

It’s an impossible standard, because it’s nearly impossible to guess what the standard of the future will actually be. If we knew that, we’d already be a lot further along the line to incorporating that standard today.

This is my main problem with today’s sport of judging past figures for their actions which were in line with the understanding of morality of the time, but which run afoul of today’s standards. Most of the people were judging today thought they were acting morally. It’s not like they were cartoon villains twirling their mustaches as they carried out what they knew were nefarious plans. Their understanding of the world around them was different than ours, and ours will be different than those of generations to come. I hope the people levying judgment on prominent figures of the past are ready to live up to the scrutiny they will face in the future.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
the point is, to be truly above reproach, you need to behave as society will eventually consider proper behavior, not what society currently considers proper behavior. that's a pretty high standard.

Your prediction seems accurate.

We’re getting a little philosophical, but to be above reproach is a little like truth itself. Truth is not defined merely by current standards or commonly held ideas, but is objectively true in itself.

As we search for truth, it is a process of both stating what we think is true, as well as stating what we think is false. It can be defined by both what it is and what it isn’t.

Like truth, being above reproach can be an absolute that is defined in positive and negative terms.

I think it is good to consider both where we are currently in our values and what future generations will think. I think of past generations and their demonstrations of what they considered to be above reproach. This is part of the joy of living, right? Here we are in the middle of a beautiful sequence of efforts to know truth and be above reproach.
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [CallMeMaybe] [ In reply to ]
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CallMeMaybe wrote:
Truth is not defined merely by current standards or commonly held ideas, but is objectively true in itself.

We're talking about societal value judgments in this thread, mostly. I'm not sure we can stipulate any objective truth in here.
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Re: Cancel culture is not real [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

what cancel culturists often fail to appreciate is motive. if you do the right thing (at the time) for the right reason, but it's the wrong thing as judged by a future generation, what should your penance be? if you run a farm, now, that gives your animals a great life until they're killed for food, what is society going to think if you a century from now? versus what society thinks of you now?

the point is, to be truly above reproach, you need to behave as society will eventually consider proper behavior, not what society currently considers proper behavior. that's a pretty high standard.

If Jesus ate meat (at Passover, at the very least), who could find fault with His example?
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