Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [SH] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SH wrote:

What makes Americans of all races and creeds Americans is that we don't like anybody telling us what to do.


Another thing that makes Americans of all races and creeds Americans is we'll tell you to your face what we think. Sitting meekly and accepting perceived slights isn't really the American way.

Quote:
Btw.. the tune to "I've been working on the railroad" may well have been created by black laborers.


From what I can tell it's origins are probably not as a black laborer work song. The melody has European roots, and it appears to have origins in minstrel shows. E.g. parodying stereotypes of blacks.


That checks out with me since "I've been working" sounds like "white people folk music."

Real chaingang songs don't sound like white people folk music.




Last edited by: trail: May 6, 21 15:08
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [SH] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SH wrote:
My claim is that if you were offended by it, pre-signing, you probably wouldn't go to the school.

how about if everybody sings the school song, and then everybody - alumni donors included - stick around for a forced singing of we shall overcome. i'm sure everyone will be happy with that.

otherwise, yes. i'm with you. the black student athletes had it explained to them, pre-signing, that the school song began with a blackface minstrel rendition, and while black athletes may find that offensive, they are expected to perform that song after every game. and the black athletes, after having that explained to them, signed anyway.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Everything has roots somewhere, usually somewhere not viewed as acceptable under today's standards. All of Rock n' Roll is based on the Blues which is largely based in black work songs, minstrel shows, etc. That doesn't mean all of Rock n' Roll is racist.

For this song, it seems the problem is the melody. Melodies aren't racist. They're just a collection of notes played in a pleasing order taking advantage of harmony, rhythm, etc. I'd be willing to bet that none of these students heard the melody and were instantly reminded of racism, until someone decided they needed to know about one step along development of the origins of the song and to tie it to that issue.

I'm sure the black students weren't aware of the "racist origins" of this song before they decided to attend the school. And I'm sure that if a few people hadn't decided that the origins were racist and then made these "racist origins" a big deal, none of them would have been suddenly seized with anger about how racist the song is.

There are just too many people hunting for things to be pissed off about these days.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
slowguy wrote:
There are just too many people hunting for things to be pissed off about these days.

Is there a name for this ⬆️ type of statement? I notice it gets used a lot. I guess with the ever-increasing population of the world, it might literally be true that there are more people complaining these days. But are too many people complaining?

I don’t feel like I see a lot of unjustified complaints.

You might think that my objection to this statement is an example of me looking for things to be pissed off about. I’m not pissed. But I think it’s an interesting and self-serving summation of this thread.
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
slowguy wrote:
Everything has roots somewhere, usually somewhere not viewed as acceptable under today's standards. All of Rock n' Roll is based on the Blues which is largely based in black work songs, minstrel shows, etc. That doesn't mean all of Rock n' Roll is racist.

For this song, it seems the problem is the melody. Melodies aren't racist. They're just a collection of notes played in a pleasing order taking advantage of harmony, rhythm, etc. I'd be willing to bet that none of these students heard the melody and were instantly reminded of racism, until someone decided they needed to know about one step along development of the origins of the song and to tie it to that issue.

I'm sure the black students weren't aware of the "racist origins" of this song before they decided to attend the school. And I'm sure that if a few people hadn't decided that the origins were racist and then made these "racist origins" a big deal, none of them would have been suddenly seized with anger about how racist the song is.

There are just too many people hunting for things to be pissed off about these days.

Fair enough, but one could make the same point about the alums. Why do they care so much about a song? Is that really such an important part of their collegiate experience? My school got rid of its Indian mascot. As you’d predict, at first lots of alums fussed about it. Now, almost none are calling for a return to those days. The alums adjusted and moved on. My connection to my alma mater is fairly strong and has nothing to do with mascots or school songs. I care how the school is doing, and not what it uses for a mascot or a song.

You’re right that some students chose the school with no reasonable expectation of forcing a change in the school song. By the same token, alums chose the school with no reasonable expectation that the old ways would stay the same.
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Absent any notion of racism, the lyrics are kind of creepy to me. I understand they're intended to be a motivational expression that the best is expected of you by Texas, but the "do not think you can escape them" is a bit 1984ish.

I like my state, California, but sometimes it can just stay the hell out of my business.
Last edited by: trail: May 6, 21 17:13
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [ike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ike wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Everything has roots somewhere, usually somewhere not viewed as acceptable under today's standards. All of Rock n' Roll is based on the Blues which is largely based in black work songs, minstrel shows, etc. That doesn't mean all of Rock n' Roll is racist.

For this song, it seems the problem is the melody. Melodies aren't racist. They're just a collection of notes played in a pleasing order taking advantage of harmony, rhythm, etc. I'd be willing to bet that none of these students heard the melody and were instantly reminded of racism, until someone decided they needed to know about one step along development of the origins of the song and to tie it to that issue.

I'm sure the black students weren't aware of the "racist origins" of this song before they decided to attend the school. And I'm sure that if a few people hadn't decided that the origins were racist and then made these "racist origins" a big deal, none of them would have been suddenly seized with anger about how racist the song is.

There are just too many people hunting for things to be pissed off about these days.


Fair enough, but one could make the same point about the alums. Why do they care so much about a song? Is that really such an important part of their collegiate experience? My school got rid of its Indian mascot. As you’d predict, at first lots of alums fussed about it. Now, almost none are calling for a return to those days. The alums adjusted and moved on. My connection to my alma mater is fairly strong and has nothing to do with mascots or school songs. I care how the school is doing, and not what it uses for a mascot or a song.

You’re right that some students chose the school with no reasonable expectation of forcing a change in the school song. By the same token, alums chose the school with no reasonable expectation that the old ways would stay the same.

I think it's pretty natural for people to value their nostalgia and memories, and to feel some level of consternation when they're changed. Things like school songs evoke the nostalgia of their youth, and remind them of good times, and I don't think it's weird or unusual for people to want to preserve those traditions. On top of that, people don't like being told that their benign traditions are actually racist symbols of hatred and evil, especially when they're just school songs.

I agree, if I were an alum of that school, I doubt I'd be putting up any major fight to keep the song. Some people get too invested. But I would certainly think this is a silly thing for either side to get massively worked up about.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
slowguy wrote:
Everything has roots somewhere, usually somewhere not viewed as acceptable under today's standards. All of Rock n' Roll is based on the Blues which is largely based in black work songs, minstrel shows, etc. That doesn't mean all of Rock n' Roll is racist.

For this song, it seems the problem is the melody. Melodies aren't racist. They're just a collection of notes played in a pleasing order taking advantage of harmony, rhythm, etc. I'd be willing to bet that none of these students heard the melody and were instantly reminded of racism, until someone decided they needed to know about one step along development of the origins of the song and to tie it to that issue.

I'm sure the black students weren't aware of the "racist origins" of this song before they decided to attend the school. And I'm sure that if a few people hadn't decided that the origins were racist and then made these "racist origins" a big deal, none of them would have been suddenly seized with anger about how racist the song is.

There are just too many people hunting for things to be pissed off about these days.

i'm with you. for example, the alumni is pissed off that the black athletes aren't forced to sing the school song in front of the alumni. my guess, the black athletes probably thought they were recruited to play football, not sing songs. that's probably also why the alumni thought black athletes were recruited. now the black athletes have a new deliverable, apparently.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Everything has roots somewhere, usually somewhere not viewed as acceptable under today's standards. All of Rock n' Roll is based on the Blues which is largely based in black work songs, minstrel shows, etc. That doesn't mean all of Rock n' Roll is racist.

For this song, it seems the problem is the melody. Melodies aren't racist. They're just a collection of notes played in a pleasing order taking advantage of harmony, rhythm, etc. I'd be willing to bet that none of these students heard the melody and were instantly reminded of racism, until someone decided they needed to know about one step along development of the origins of the song and to tie it to that issue.

I'm sure the black students weren't aware of the "racist origins" of this song before they decided to attend the school. And I'm sure that if a few people hadn't decided that the origins were racist and then made these "racist origins" a big deal, none of them would have been suddenly seized with anger about how racist the song is.

There are just too many people hunting for things to be pissed off about these days.


i'm with you. for example, the alumni is pissed off that the black athletes aren't forced to sing the school song in front of the alumni. my guess, the black athletes probably thought they were recruited to play football, not sing songs. that's probably also why the alumni thought black athletes were recruited. now the black athletes have a new deliverable, apparently.

Yeah, that's a dumb thing for the alum to be pissed off about.

That said, I didn't join the Naval Academy to sing Navy Blue and Gold, but it was certainly expected of me once I was there. Sometimes, them's the breaks.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
chaparral wrote:
SH wrote:
sosayusall wrote:
Yeah I honestly don’t think the donors are that racists. But the situation plays out like this.

Athlete - I don’t want to sing that song
Admin - ok we went going to make you sing that song but we are going to play it.
Donor - if they don’t want to sing that song like everyone before then they should go somewhere else.

The donor is completely off base. He doesn’t want his norms to be changed - doesn’t care why. also wants to be able to force other people to do something. And also wants to indirectly control who gets admitted to UT based on his own criteria.

That’s the only reason why this is an issue. A donor is telling the admin what the standards for the student athletes should be. It’s insane that if you give someone enough money they will force 18 years olds to do something.

This is what cancel culture really looks like.


Well, these kids did choose Texas. It's no mystery what the spirit song is. Why choose to attend a school to play a sport if you are insulted by its spirit song? Short, keeping it real, answer: they weren't insulted by it. They just got to Texas, got tribally aligned, and joined the powerplay. How could you live with yourself 10 to 20 years from now if you weren't sticking it to the man when you had the chance?

But, constitutionally, nobody's money can force anyone to do anything. It's seems very much a first amendment issue at this point. There'll need to be some kind of agreement, or it's going to be everybody upset at everbody at the end of the game.

Hmmm... on second thought maybe it won't be thaaat unfamiliar.


So you think that all of the players knew the lyrics of the song and the historic background before joining? Really?

I've been associated with 4 Universities, 2 of which for over a decade, and I couldn't even tell you what any of their spirit songs are. I don't even know if they have one or not.
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [j p o] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
j p o wrote:
Erin C. wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
The views of this donor don't read particularly well:

"Less than 6% of our current student body is black," wrote Larry Wilkinson, a donor who graduated in 1970, quoting a statistic UT-Austin officials have stated they’re working to improve. "The tail cannot be allowed to wag the dog….. and the dog must instead stand up for what is right. Nothing forces those students to attend UT Austin. Encourage them to select an alternate school ….NOW!"

It seems to be an admission that there may be something inherently racist about the song, but if the blacks don't like it, well, they should find a different school.


That wasn't even the worst one:

"It's time for you to put the foot down and make it perfectly clear that the heritage of Texas will not be lost," wrote another donor who graduated in 1986. Their name was also redacted by UT-Austin. "It is sad that it is offending the blacks. As I said before the blacks are free and it's time for them to move on to another state where everything is in their favor."


I didn't really think it was based in racism until I read the people defending it.

Yeah, I mostly agree that it's a bit of stretch to find offense but much less so in the people who seem to really care about it defending it.

I'd put some money on if you're using the term "the blacks" in your public speech, and your attitude is conform or get out, you're using much more choice words in private.

And it's crazy this is from an '86 graduate and not a '66 graduate.
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [Tri2gohard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Basically every sports team is going through this right now. If it's not the fight song, then it's the team name or the mascot or something. My old school appointed a diversity task force to conduct a review into the phrase "to hell with Georgia" which was used to disparage the rival team. The panel determined it was "hate speech" and have been successful at removing it from the fight songs and so forth, but the drunken football fans still yell it out during the game.
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [Tri2gohard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just a sad topical update. Longhorn LB and brother of the QB Ehlinger from your first link was just found dead.

Almost certainly no link to this issue - just reporting because the name caught my attention.
Last edited by: trail: May 7, 21 10:35
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
Just a sad topical update. Longhorn LB and brother of the QB Ehlinger from your first link was just found dead.

Almost certainly no link to this issue - just reporting because the name caught my attention.

You just hate to see a young life cut short like this.

We all know it will end someday, but seeing it end this soon. Just doesn't seem right.
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Everything has roots somewhere, usually somewhere not viewed as acceptable under today's standards. All of Rock n' Roll is based on the Blues which is largely based in black work songs, minstrel shows, etc. That doesn't mean all of Rock n' Roll is racist.

For this song, it seems the problem is the melody. Melodies aren't racist. They're just a collection of notes played in a pleasing order taking advantage of harmony, rhythm, etc. I'd be willing to bet that none of these students heard the melody and were instantly reminded of racism, until someone decided they needed to know about one step along development of the origins of the song and to tie it to that issue.

I'm sure the black students weren't aware of the "racist origins" of this song before they decided to attend the school. And I'm sure that if a few people hadn't decided that the origins were racist and then made these "racist origins" a big deal, none of them would have been suddenly seized with anger about how racist the song is.

There are just too many people hunting for things to be pissed off about these days.


i'm with you. for example, the alumni is pissed off that the black athletes aren't forced to sing the school song in front of the alumni. my guess, the black athletes probably thought they were recruited to play football, not sing songs. that's probably also why the alumni thought black athletes were recruited. now the black athletes have a new deliverable, apparently.

I have never seen a contract for football recruits to sign, however, I would be completely blown away if there wasn't a clause in there that says something to the affect of one of their responsibilities is to uphold the traditions of the school and to attend fundraising events. Both of those would fall under this (asinine) requirement.
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [M~] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Should be noted that it goes way beyond players. The band wouldn't play it apparently even before the players responded.

I don't think it's racist, but if the sizeable preponderance of the student body wants a change, I don't see the point in mandating that a recording be played in celebratory moments like it or not, dammit. The fun will be mandatory!

Read the room.

It's not like it has a ton of cultural value outside of maybe some alumni nostalgia. Melody is kinda weak. Lyrics are weird. Alumni can sing it at reunions.

There is a hill to die on in defense against the cultural and literary destruction at the hands of the woke pandemic.

I'm not sure this is that hill.
Last edited by: trail: May 8, 21 18:30
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
Should be noted that it goes way beyond players. The band wouldn't play it apparently even before the players responded.

I don't think it's racist, but if the sizeable preponderance of the student body wants a change, I don't see the point in mandating that a recording be played in celebratory moments like it or not, dammit. The fun will be mandatory!

Read the room.

It's not like it has a ton of cultural value outside of maybe some alumni nostalgia. Melody is kinda weak. Lyrics are weird. Alumni can sing it at reunions.

There is a hill to die on in defense against the cultural and literary destruction at the hands of the woke pandemic.

I'm not sure this is that hill.

you make so much sense for a bike racer.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
SH wrote:

What makes Americans of all races and creeds Americans is that we don't like anybody telling us what to do.


Another thing that makes Americans of all races and creeds Americans is we'll tell you to your face what we think. Sitting meekly and accepting perceived slights isn't really the American way.



Can I ask you to keep the context of the quote you're responding to? Your "response" agrees with mine in the context it was given.



Quote:
That checks out with me since "I've been working" sounds like "white people folk music."

First, I never said the lyrics may well have been created by black laborers. I said the tune.
Secondly, your claim that you can hear "black" music versus "white" music -- especially from a potential catalog composed over a centuries long period -- seems absurd to me. When I mention things like the tune may well have been created by black laborers, that's because I read it in an article that touched on the history of the subject -- not because I heard the song, and my ear can figure all that out.
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [M~] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
M~ wrote:
Slowman wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Everything has roots somewhere, usually somewhere not viewed as acceptable under today's standards. All of Rock n' Roll is based on the Blues which is largely based in black work songs, minstrel shows, etc. That doesn't mean all of Rock n' Roll is racist.

For this song, it seems the problem is the melody. Melodies aren't racist. They're just a collection of notes played in a pleasing order taking advantage of harmony, rhythm, etc. I'd be willing to bet that none of these students heard the melody and were instantly reminded of racism, until someone decided they needed to know about one step along development of the origins of the song and to tie it to that issue.

I'm sure the black students weren't aware of the "racist origins" of this song before they decided to attend the school. And I'm sure that if a few people hadn't decided that the origins were racist and then made these "racist origins" a big deal, none of them would have been suddenly seized with anger about how racist the song is.

There are just too many people hunting for things to be pissed off about these days.


i'm with you. for example, the alumni is pissed off that the black athletes aren't forced to sing the school song in front of the alumni. my guess, the black athletes probably thought they were recruited to play football, not sing songs. that's probably also why the alumni thought black athletes were recruited. now the black athletes have a new deliverable, apparently.

I have never seen a contract for football recruits to sign, however, I would be completely blown away if there wasn't a clause in there that says something to the affect of one of their responsibilities is to uphold the traditions of the school and to attend fundraising events. Both of those would fall under this (asinine) requirement.

I read the National Level of Intent, which does not seem to have such a provision. It just requires you to attend school for at least one year. Perhaps there are other documents they sign. But, this is the one I could find.
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [SH] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SH wrote:
I said the tune.

Tune is European in origin, from what I can tell. No black rhythms, etc.


Quote:
Secondly, your claim that you can hear "black" music versus "white" music -- especially from a potential catalog composed over a centuries long period -- seems absurd to me.

Sure, just pointing out the this one has both seemingly near-pure white melody and lyrics. Can't find black cultural influence with a flashlight.
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
SH wrote:
My claim is that if you were offended by it, pre-signing, you probably wouldn't go to the school.


how about if everybody sings the school song, and then everybody - alumni donors included - stick around for a forced singing of we shall overcome. i'm sure everyone will be happy with that.

otherwise, yes. i'm with you. the black student athletes had it explained to them, pre-signing, that the school song began with a blackface minstrel rendition, and while black athletes may find that offensive, they are expected to perform that song after every game. and the black athletes, after having that explained to them, signed anyway.

A few things here:

1.) There may be some voices in addition to yours that are calling for forced singings, but the actual University's position is that there will be no forced singing of any songs. That's also my position from the earlier comments. But I'm not sure that's our only disagreement.

2.) The UT recruits typically have the following information available to them to determine the racism of the song in question:

a.) they can hear it sung during the season every other Saturday by ~60,000 people of all races and colors.
b.) they can hear about it from future team mates during their NCAA approved campus visit that's funded by the University.
c.) they can hear about it from opposing teams trying to dissuade them from going to UT during those NCAA approved campus visits.
d.) they can watch Emmanuel Acho play it on the piano for Ricky Williams as a special homage during Ricky's 30 for 30 ESPN special.


3.) I attended UT Austin in the early 90's. I went to football games and witnessed the singing of the song. I partook in the intellectual climate of the University in that time, and have kept track of it since. The idea that the University of Texas at Austin has been secretly harboring or even meekly tolerating a racist song at the end of every football game for decades and decades is absurd and an ignorant discredit to all the high-minded, open-minded, and courageous people that have gone there and contributed to racial equality and racial diversity in that great University's name. That last cohort has dominated the landscape of ideas at UT since long before I ever arrived, and long after I left.

I'm sure there are parts of Texas that would fit your typical racist stereotypes to a tee. But -- and trust me on this -- Austin, and especially the University, aren't those parts. The idea that black athletes at UT Austin can only just now voice their true feelings on these types of matters is false.
Quote Reply
Re: The Eyes of Texas Controversy [SH] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SH wrote:
Slowman wrote:
SH wrote:
My claim is that if you were offended by it, pre-signing, you probably wouldn't go to the school.


how about if everybody sings the school song, and then everybody - alumni donors included - stick around for a forced singing of we shall overcome. i'm sure everyone will be happy with that.

otherwise, yes. i'm with you. the black student athletes had it explained to them, pre-signing, that the school song began with a blackface minstrel rendition, and while black athletes may find that offensive, they are expected to perform that song after every game. and the black athletes, after having that explained to them, signed anyway.


A few things here:

1.) There may be some voices in addition to yours that are calling for forced singings, but the actual University's position is that there will be no forced singing of any songs. That's also my position from the earlier comments. But I'm not sure that's our only disagreement.

2.) The UT recruits typically have the following information available to them to determine the racism of the song in question:

a.) they can hear it sung during the season every other Saturday by ~60,000 people of all races and colors.
b.) they can hear about it from future team mates during their NCAA approved campus visit that's funded by the University.
c.) they can hear about it from opposing teams trying to dissuade them from going to UT during those NCAA approved campus visits.
d.) they can watch Emmanuel Acho play it on the piano for Ricky Williams as a special homage during Ricky's 30 for 30 ESPN special.


3.) I attended UT Austin in the early 90's. I went to football games and witnessed the singing of the song. I partook in the intellectual climate of the University in that time, and have kept track of it since. The idea that the University of Texas at Austin has been secretly harboring or even meekly tolerating a racist song at the end of every football game for decades and decades is absurd and an ignorant discredit to all the high-minded, open-minded, and courageous people that have gone there and contributed to racial equality and racial diversity in that great University's name. That last cohort has dominated the landscape of ideas at UT since long before I ever arrived, and long after I left.

I'm sure there are parts of Texas that would fit your typical racist stereotypes to a tee. But -- and trust me on this -- Austin, and especially the University, aren't those parts. The idea that black athletes at UT Austin can only just now voice their true feelings on these types of matters is false.

i think a lot of things were innocently engaged in in times past, with no bad motives, no racism. e.g., ralph northam in blackface while in college. i don't think black people have a hair trigger about this. i don't see black people as being as woke as white people about black injustice. many or most of those calling for northam to resign were white people righteously indignant by proxy, but northam's black constituents appeared to see things with a more human lens: he was young, he was naive, if you look at his behavior since becoming a public service, we like him, so please don't be outraged on our behalf (we aren't outraged).

at the same time, there's been a lot of plantation mentality in sport over my lifetime. wealthy white people who don't understand why "the blacks" want, want, want. (have they ever had it so good?) from smith & carlos to curt flood to kaepernick, it's been those uppity black athletes always rocking the boat - the ingratitude! - and here with UT we've got it again.

do you think the UT alumni withholding their donations are black? or are they more likely the well-to-do white people who just want their school's black athletes to shut up and dribble, pitch, bat, block and tackle? and be happy with the opportunity they've been given?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply

Prev Next