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Re: Raising 5s and 1min power [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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I'm going to have to disagree, only a bit, with some of the advice you've been given. Here are a few thoughts to consider while digesting the previous advice:

1. While we speak in terms of 5 second, 1 min, 20 min, etc. power. Those are really constructs we use to define measures of fitness/form but our physiology is more complex than that. You can raise your FTP with Tabata intervals or with just increasing mileage substantially. Even though there are methods that are more efficient use of time, you will not be tanking your FTP by adding in intense efforts which are likely to improve your power at 1 min/5 min, etc. Different riders react to training stimulus differently and you really need to find a plan that fits your needs.

2. Having a higher FTP is great for TT's, Tri's or pretty much any cycling event. However, resilience to intense repeated efforts is important too. I've had different times in my training where although I had a very similar FTP, my resilience to repeated efforts above threshold were much different. It's common to think in terms of matches you have to burn before your matchbook is empty. Having more 'matches' in general is much more important in a criterium or cx race than any triathlon event (drafting or non-drafting). However, that same resilience can be helpful in turning a good TT split on a course with rolling hills, especially if draft legal. That being said, your FTP being higher is still most important, especially given the type of races you are describing.

Good luck with your training!

Scott


I have deceptive speed.........I'm slower than I look!
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Re: Raising 5s and 1min power [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
I think there's also a substantial disconnect here, thinking of 5s and 1 min power vs having to surge mid-race for 5s to 1min. I doubt I've ever come close to my 5s power in a crit, including in the finishing sprint..........I might peak at my 20s max in the finishing sprint, so holding that number for 2-3 seconds. avg power in the sprint will be lower than that.


If you're hitting 5s power, or maybe even 1min power, to close a gap, you'd better hope that the bunch slows down or you will be off the back again pretty quickly.


As the race goes on your ability to hit those peak numbers diminish. In a 20-40k it's not going to drop much. It's also not going to be as high as I'm fresh let's test to see where I'm at. The more surges/gaps you have to close the lower that number is going to go as well. Physiology is a cruel dominatrix.

Today's Crit City C race, I got dropped from the front group halfway through the race, latched onto the second group and got 3rd out of 17 in the sprint for 26th place. I managed to hit my 30s power for all of 2 seconds in that final dash.

Golden Cheetah said my W' went negative right around the time I got dropped, so I think that means I used up all my matches.

Which brings up an interesting point. There is a lot of discussion about raising FTP, but I hardly ever see anything about raising W', which (to my limited understanding of the subject) is a pretty important metric when talking about repeatability.

Edit - in a 22min race, I counted 10 surges at anywhere between 2 and 5 min power. Which just backs up what everyone else is saying.

Also, to the OP, how often do you really do flat out 5s sprints? I don't mean surging during a race or group ride, I mean doing a warmup, some easy riding, then stomping on the pedals as hard as you can for 10 seconds while you're fresh to get a true "peak" power number. Most people don't do that (and it isn't really necessary, I've done it mostly out of curiosity, but I'm not training that peak)

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Mar 5, 21 11:55
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Re: Raising 5s and 1min power [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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I'll second anyone else on here that has suggested group rides. Mix a weekly hammerfest in as your weekly hard cycling workout in addition to your regular training. If you ride a group ride aggressively, power output from 30s to FTP will improve, and frankly, it's just more fun and tolerable than doing anaerobic 30-120 second intervals by yourself. I'd still suggest doing specific sprint training for improving 5-10s power outside of group rides although it will be less practical for draft legal racing.
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Re: Raising 5s and 1min power [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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The best way to raise 5s power is to do repeated jumps. There's a huge neuromuscular component to these.

A typical workout would be to ride for 60 mins in a cruising gear, middle of cassette. Speed 17-18 mph. Every 3 mins spin/sprint as fast as you can for 5s without changing gear and remaining seated. Speed should go from 18 mph to 28-30 mph. Don't change gear. You should always be a little undergeared and spinning high cadence to get the acceleration.

Try in a few different gears and alternate between drops, tops and hoods to see which gives the best results/max speed. 3 mins works well for recovery. 2.5 minutes if you're in a hurry. If you can recover in 2 minutes you haven't been trying hard enough.

Typically the peaks will be found on reps 4 and 5.

This exercise singlehandedly made the difference for not getting dropped in a cat 3 or 4 crit. Way easier on the legs to respond to an acceleration around every corner by spinning fast than pounding a bigger gear. I'm a diesel engine with no natural sprinting ability. Crits don't come easy to me.

There's a high neuromuscular component to this, but it will also work those fast twitch muscles. You will see a difference after 3 to 4 weeks.

1 min power is a mix of different energy systems. Training 1 minute intervals is not the way to do it.

I recommend 1 session of 30 on/30 off or 15 on/15 off. 10 minute intervals. 3 set of intervals. i.e. 3*10 mins of 30/30 with 10 mins rest between each. Go hard as you can sustainably go for the on period, in a reasonably hard gear. Combine this with steady VO2 max work and you will see huge gains in 1 min power. I typically see 20-30% increases over a few weeks. e.g 420W for 1 min will get close to 580 W after 5 weeks or so.

This is tremendously useful for dealing with surges and hills in group rides and crits. I'll be able to finish with the P12s in our local weekday practice crit (28 mph average) after a few weeks of these. Was even able to have a short chat with Alex Howes during one of these a couple of years ago.
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Re: Raising 5s and 1min power [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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It sounds like race-craft and positioning could be putting you in bad positions that you have to go over threshold to cover, and you are unable to recover adequately and repeat.
It’s an aerobic sport, damnit- Coggan
A rising tide lifts all ships- also Coggan IIRC

A 5 second surge =\= 5 second power. A 1’ surge =\= 1 minute power (think Theo Bos and Chris Hoy)

Over/unders and VO2, sure. SST and Zone 4, sure.

But also quit putting yourself in positions to need to cover gaps and splits, and rethink what you’re doing the 5 miles before those 1-2’ hills.
Start at the front and slip-climb. Ride your pace and don’t overgear. Meter your efforts closing gaps and chasing back on.
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Re: Raising 5s and 1min power [Slowerthanyou] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, and yes, that is part of the explanation and I have to work at that too. I often get distracted when taking a drink or whatever and when I realize I already have a gap to close.

Regarding the other comments, they provide extremely valuable information. My take away is that I am in the right track, which is raising the tide (FTP) and doing intervals to increase 1 min power. Fundamentally to shorten recovery time. As I see it, a combination of Tabatas and other short intervals with short recovery will do the trick. 5s power is something I should forget about.

Thanks everyone.
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Re: Raising 5s and 1min power [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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Is there someone in your group who is really good at positioning, always in the right spot, never looks like they are working hard, and seems to float through the group with ease?
Glue yourself to that wheel.
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