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Re: HRV DFA alpha 1 to estimate Aerobic Threshold [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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duncan wrote:
MrTri123 wrote:

How much did the lab testing cost?

How did they test you?

I am thinking about in of them home blood lactate testing meters. Do you think that would be good?

The official cost of the test was 280 CHF (about 300 USD), though it was done by a friend and I think that he was able to write it off as development testing while he was setting up a new lab. Still, for me it would have been a price worth paying.

It was a maximal stress test on an SRM ergometer, with measurement of lactate, VO2, respiratory quotient (RQ), with discussion, analysis and report by the exercise physiologist after.

I don't have the expertise to comment on the value of home blood lactate testing. From talking to a couple of exercise phys I know, one of who works at world tour level, I'm thinking it depends on what philosophy you buy into. For instance, Iñigo san Millán is a big proponent, but not everyone agrees with him... In my case, my LT1 and VT1 were measured to be 250 W. My LT2 was at 323 W. None of these values were much surprise to me, indeed the LT2 was just a few Watts different to my self-assessed FTP. However, the RQ showed that at just 200 W I was already burning 80% sugars. This information was a) useful and b) actionable. Further, since it was not correlated with LT1, it would not have been shown by lactate testing alone.

Thank you

Was your LT1 (250 W) approx 75% of your MHR?

I never did an FTP test. I averaged 230 watts in a Half distance. I thought that equaled maybe a 300 FTP

SEEMS to coincide with your LT1 and LT2
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Re: HRV DFA alpha 1 to estimate Aerobic Threshold [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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timbasile wrote:
I'm curious how you would action the 200w / 80% sugars piece of information. In long course triathlon, aren't we (almost) always trying to maximize the % of fat oxidation at most race paces?

Once you know that rate, how do you go about changing it - other than through generalized training principles? (Mostly Z2 work, limit your dietary sugars, the odd fasted workout might help, etc)

Well, the ironic thing is that this test came at the end of an extended block "polarized training" which I had done with the precise aim of improving metabolic function and fat oxidation. Further, I habitually do a "fasted" training session one or two times per week. However, in my case, I likely have a genetic predisposition to carb burning, such that none of these approaches have had any significant effect on shifting me towards more effective fat oxidation.

Apart from considerations of how best to train, in terms of how I can act on this information, one possibility would be to adopt a low carb diet in order to "force" a greater fat oxidation. However, my main events are distance bicycle races or gran fondos, and when I have gone in that direction (for other reasons) I had the impression that it limited my ability to make repeated hard efforts. So, the recommended alternative is simply to train myself to be able to consume and digest the highest amount of carbs possible while racing.
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Re: HRV DFA alpha 1 to estimate Aerobic Threshold [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123 wrote:
Was your LT1 (250 W) approx 75% of your MHR?

In that test my heart rate at LT1 was 71% of my MHR. Not sure how reproducible that value would be.
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Re: HRV DFA alpha 1 to estimate Aerobic Threshold [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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I downloaded the HRV logger app and just did an ez endurance ride trying to nail in my level. Everything worked pretty well, results were completely unsurprising (using Garmin HRM dual).

One question I have is it seems a lot of folks here naturally want to push up against this barrier in their endurance ride. Is there any research or other reason to believe that doing your rides nudged up against lt1 results in better outcomes than giving it a wider birth and just staying below?

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: HRV DFA alpha 1 to estimate Aerobic Threshold [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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ericlambi wrote:
I downloaded the HRV logger app and just did an ez endurance ride trying to nail in my level. Everything worked pretty well, results were completely unsurprising (using Garmin HRM dual).

One question I have is it seems a lot of folks here naturally want to push up against this barrier in their endurance ride. Is there any research or other reason to believe that doing your rides nudged up against lt1 results in better outcomes than giving it a wider birth and just staying below?

I’ve heard countless podcasts discussing common mistakes athletes make. Almost universally, they include the tendency to ride right at the top of this zone (or any zone) as a mistake. Another common problem is chasing TSS instead of adaptation. For all intents and purposes, the difference in adaptations from riding right at LT1 vs 5-10 beats below LT1 is minimal, but the difference in fatigue can be huge, particularly for longer sessions.
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Re: HRV DFA alpha 1 to estimate Aerobic Threshold [s5100e] [ In reply to ]
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For those interested in DFA a1 there is a new Garmin IQ app that works like a native data field (from what I know so far it records and saves the DFA a1 data as a new field). Bruce Rogers has a write up on the app
AlphaHRV - the first native Garmin DFA a1 data field
http://www.muscleoxygentraining.com/2022/

I have downloaded it and it was pretty easy to set up and it seems to work though it is early days. Seems like a better way to stay in the zone when you can see it in real time. The app allows you to recalculate the a1 every 2 seconds but maybe 5 or 6 is less data and less intensity on the Garmin computer and battery life? Seems like a nice step forward for those interested. I look forward to hat others find with this app.
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Re: HRV DFA alpha 1 to estimate Aerobic Threshold [s5100e] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting, will give it a try.

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: HRV DFA alpha 1 to estimate Aerobic Threshold [s5100e] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting. This may be person to person dependent on how well it tracks. I’ve been using HRV logger and ~125 is where .75 has consistently been when I’ve retested every 4 weeks. I added the garmin field earlier this morning and have done 2 rides plotting in both HRV logger and the garmin app and the garmin app is giving values of .65 - .35 consistently at hrs of around 110 for me, while HRV logger had me above 1.0. Not sure if it’s a me issue, but my n=1 wasn’t good.

Interested to see others results if comparing.
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Re: HRV DFA alpha 1 to estimate Aerobic Threshold [s5100e] [ In reply to ]
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8 mile run tonight. I cant down load the a1 data from garminIQ but screen shot the a1 graph on garmin connect and overlaid that with the AI Endurance - I could see from the start of the run that the IQ a1 is lower by a lot. AI Endurance has good repeatability for my workout the last 4 weeks. Wish I could get a realtime a1 but understand the CPUs in the watches are undersized for the real-time computation needed. I would also prefer a just a number rather than the graphic on the watch display. Current number is too small font for my old eyes.



Last edited by: scca_ita: Feb 10, 22 20:58
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Re: HRV DFA alpha 1 to estimate Aerobic Threshold [scca_ita] [ In reply to ]
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I tried it last evening on my 520+ and the downside for me was it hijacks the heart rate data and when I uploaded to Connect, the alpha 1 data was there but there was no heart rate data.. so it is not a solution for me. The problem I have with HRV logger is that it only updates the alpha 1 data every 2 minutes. If you change the time constant that affects the calculation window which is not good because a 2 minute time window is optimal for alpha 1 particularly for exercise. So for me there are limitations I am not happy with so I had to remove the app from my 520+ to be able to get a good heart rate data that I could load into AI Endurance. Other Garmin units may work better but it is not good on the 520+.
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Re: HRV DFA alpha 1 to estimate Aerobic Threshold [s5100e] [ In reply to ]
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Does anyone know a good way to record Power & HRV into 1 file without a Garmin cycling computer?
I have a polar H10 & want to look into DFA a1 using software like Runalyze.


Don't think a Wahoo Element Bolt V1 logs HRV and my Garmin 645 watch can log HRV but not power.
Suppose I could merge the 2 files into 1 somehow.
But the best case would be some PC software that will connect to both over Bluetooth for better quality data.

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