Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Comfortable/Durable shoe inserts
Quote | Reply
I’m looking for a solution for a triathlete with a quarter inch leg length discrepancy. I’m not entirely positive it is the sole cause of her post run pain that prevents her from running more than 2 miles at a time- but my question is - has anyone here successfully worn a heel lift and been able to train? A lot of the standard accessories that non athletes wear would be destroyed by triathlete training, or be ill fitting in her shoes.

Her tri coach also modified her running technique, gait that could also be contributing to her problem., The heel tenderness, even on the sides of her heel where it is almost exquisitely painful to squeeze is making me think her heel strike is too heavy.

Any thoughts or success stories appreciated
Quote Reply
Re: Comfortable/Durable shoe inserts [Benaldo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Benaldo wrote:
I’m looking for a solution for a triathlete with a quarter inch leg length discrepancy. I’m not entirely positive it is the sole cause of her post run pain that prevents her from running more than 2 miles at a time- but my question is - has anyone here successfully worn a heel lift and been able to train? A lot of the standard accessories that non athletes wear would be destroyed by triathlete training, or be ill fitting in her shoes.

Her tri coach also modified her running technique, gait that could also be contributing to her problem., The heel tenderness, even on the sides of her heel where it is almost exquisitely painful to squeeze is making me think her heel strike is too heavy.

Any thoughts or success stories appreciated

when i began as a runner, in 1970, and i used to go to road races, these were small races. the running boom hadn't happened yet. 300 was a large field. so, we recognized each other; same group would come out. one guy had no feet. he had something like socks that covered his stumps. both legs ended at the ankle. all of the suspension you get in your feet, with an articulating ankle, and all the bones in the feet, gone. nothing. and, there he was, week after week. not fast, mind you, because you get a lot of propulsion out of the feet. he had not use for his calves, for example. but there he was, running.

you can successfully run with pretty severe physical limitations. when i watch physically challenged athletes run, some of them get by with very little accommodation, in my experience. have you noticed now above-the-knee amputees run with a prosthetic "swing", in order to clear the ground with the prosthetic? and what it does to the runner's gait in general?

so, in my inexpert opinion, no. that quarter-inch discrepancy probably isn't the issue, and probably shouldn't be corrected prosthetically. in bike fitting, i think most fitters either don't correct for leg length discrepancies, or they only partially correct, because the body is pretty good at adapting. i think we'd need a lot more explanation before a verdict of any specificity was rendered. what does this lady look like when running? what is the form change the coach recommended? what shoes is she running in? what running surfaces? only then can we render untutored internet opinions supported by insufficient training, experience and education ;-)

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Comfortable/Durable shoe inserts [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Agree with everything you've stated- I'm familiar with Greg Lehman's nihilistic position on 'no bad biomechanics' and think that this is useful to a degree. People should not carry around ideas about their bodies that could potentially be limiting them, or make them think that they are brittle.

However, she is unable to train due to this pain- and here is some more info-

She has a wide variety of shoes to choose from - she was a devoted Hoka runner - the cushioned shoe with a rocker plate at midfoot, but eventually developed plantar fascitis which caused her to abandon them. Her main road shoe now is from a New Balance 1080, but she's only trail running with shoes from Topo, with a larger toe box and a lower drop from heel to toe. She is only able to run about 2 miles at a time and is in significant pain afterwards.

She's had her running stride filmed - and this is where is gets weedy- and was told her footstrike crosses the median line slightly and that she has anterior pelvic tilt. This assessment was from her tri coach.

Changes that were recommended to her were to increase her cadence from 168 to 180, in order to have her feet land under her body instead of in front of her, ostensibly to reduce heel strike impact - and - for some reason - to try to widen her base stance when running. This is difficult and is done for short intervals when running over a painted road line for reference.

She's seen her regular MD and a physiatrist that were unable to solve or help her with her problem.

So, I'm skeptical of the prescription of cadence increase and base widening, but her problem predates these changes. Any thoughts?
Quote Reply
Re: Comfortable/Durable shoe inserts [Benaldo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Benaldo wrote:
Agree with everything you've stated- I'm familiar with Greg Lehman's nihilistic position on 'no bad biomechanics' and think that this is useful to a degree. People should not carry around ideas about their bodies that could potentially be limiting them, or make them think that they are brittle.

However, she is unable to train due to this pain- and here is some more info-

She has a wide variety of shoes to choose from - she was a devoted Hoka runner - the cushioned shoe with a rocker plate at midfoot, but eventually developed plantar fascitis which caused her to abandon them. Her main road shoe now is from a New Balance 1080, but she's only trail running with shoes from Topo, with a larger toe box and a lower drop from heel to toe. She is only able to run about 2 miles at a time and is in significant pain afterwards.

She's had her running stride filmed - and this is where is gets weedy- and was told her footstrike crosses the median line slightly and that she has anterior pelvic tilt. This assessment was from her tri coach.

Changes that were recommended to her were to increase her cadence from 168 to 180, in order to have her feet land under her body instead of in front of her, ostensibly to reduce heel strike impact - and - for some reason - to try to widen her base stance when running. This is difficult and is done for short intervals when running over a painted road line for reference.

She's seen her regular MD and a physiatrist that were unable to solve or help her with her problem.

So, I'm skeptical of the prescription of cadence increase and base widening, but her problem predates these changes. Any thoughts?

i actually think the cadence change may be based on sound reasoning. i wouldn't focus on cadence, but i do think most untutored runners tend to overstride. if you just follow runners from, say, their freshman years in high school thru to their senior years, and into college - if they become successful in competition - you'll see this tightening up of form, an increase in economy of motion, and the typical thing that changes is the landing spot. first contact is made with the sole of the foot under the knee, not in front of the knee. a faster cadence is the byproduct. the faster cadence isn't the point, but it often tracks with better foot placement.

as to the other thing, this is where i think biomechanics just is what it is. there are macro samenesses among good runners, but a lot of micro differences that causes you to be able to identify a runner just by the nuances in gait, and i think where you land in that particular plane - if you foot crosses the body's median - i don't know that this is a changeable thing.

me, i run in orthotics. i'm very, very particular about my footbeds. i'm a HOKA runner, but not just any HOKA runner. the shoe has to have enough oomph to support my footbed. i guess, depending on her pain, where she gets that pain, maybe a footbed is the trick, so your instinct may be right when you ask about footbeds.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Comfortable/Durable shoe inserts [Benaldo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
.. on two legs we look for balance (like on two wheels ;-) .. loosing ore finding this balance is an accident ore a process .. extremities and torso need time to adapt to positions .. coordination and reaction training help .. running is a dynamic balance and ends at the feet .. it starts from the “belly“ upwards .. after a femur fracture with one leg getting longer my hip and lower back asked for a more balanced symmetry .. I offered help with a fitted footbed from durable cork in my walking shoes ..

*
___/\___/\___/\___
the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
Quote Reply
Re: Comfortable/Durable shoe inserts [Benaldo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It seems the general response from her tri community- even her podiatrist - to the fact that she was wearing Hokas - was almost outrage. They were blamed for her plantar fascitis and a variety of other things as well - but perhaps you avoid this by having more cushion in your shoes as well as orthotics?

At the time her problem developed she was also standing on a concrete floor for 8 hour shifts, and she noticed it began with some left IT band soreness.

Which makes me wonder. It may be too easy to implicate her activity of choice - triathlon training - maybe her problems are not caused from her training but from some other part of her daily activites. I love when this is the case. I wonder if she needs to modify the shoe she loved - the Hoka - to get her normal back.

So, your orthotics - I assume you're removing the foot pad from the Hokas in order to put the orthotics in? Curious about your shoe set-up. And how you work the orthotics in. She also has orthotics from her podiatrist.
Quote Reply
Re: Comfortable/Durable shoe inserts [sausskross] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sausskross wrote:
.. on two legs we look for balance (like on two wheels ;-) .. loosing ore finding this balance is an accident ore a process .. extremities and torso need time to adapt to positions .. coordination and reaction training help .. running is a dynamic balance and ends at the feet .. it starts from the “belly“ upwards .. after a femur fracture with one leg getting longer my hip and lower back asked for a more balanced symmetry .. I offered help with a fitted footbed from durable cork in my walking shoes ..

This would be a much more dramatic discrepancy with a femur fracture. Did the cork footbed help and which company made it for you? Thanks for posting
Quote Reply
Re: Comfortable/Durable shoe inserts [Benaldo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Benaldo wrote:
It seems the general response from her tri community- even her podiatrist - to the fact that she was wearing Hokas - was almost outrage. They were blamed for her plantar fascitis and a variety of other things as well - but perhaps you avoid this by having more cushion in your shoes as well as orthotics?

At the time her problem developed she was also standing on a concrete floor for 8 hour shifts, and she noticed it began with some left IT band soreness.

Which makes me wonder. It may be too easy to implicate her activity of choice - triathlon training - maybe her problems are not caused from her training but from some other part of her daily activites. I love when this is the case. I wonder if she needs to modify the shoe she loved - the Hoka - to get her normal back.

So, your orthotics - I assume you're removing the foot pad from the Hokas in order to put the orthotics in? Curious about your shoe set-up. And how you work the orthotics in. She also has orthotics from her podiatrist.

Hoka is a brand that make various models. They are generally highly cushioned shoes with a rocker shape but it might help to be specific.

You talk about life style contributing but then talk about modifying the shoes. I think it's not uncommon to exaggerate the contribution of shoes to running injuries. I think it's more likely that we have underlying issues and shoes either do or don't help us manage those issues. If life style is contributing then modify the behaviour and exercise to correct it rather than adjust shoes to accommodate it. Maybe with a break to let it calm down and allow the exercise to start working.

I'd be interested in the long history of the problem. How long ago did it start? Same on both feet? Has there been time off running in that time? What has been tried?

In general I'd start with a full sports work up. What parts of the running body are weak or inflexible or even over developed? That may of already been done but I think that is the best approach.
Quote Reply
Re: Comfortable/Durable shoe inserts [Benaldo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
.. that fitted cork footbed for my walking shoes was made by a orthopedic shoemaker [in my home town in germany] .. these days I found even a carbon based solution [for my road bike shoes to stabilize the feedback especially but not only for the left knee ] .. scroll down to choose the language on the left side .. https://solestar.de

*
___/\___/\___/\___
the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
Last edited by: sausskross: Feb 7, 21 11:37
Quote Reply
Re: Comfortable/Durable shoe inserts [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
[
i actually think the cadence change may be based on sound reasoning. i wouldn't focus on cadence, but i do think most untutored runners tend to overstride. if you just follow runners from, say, their freshman years in high school thru to their senior years, and into college - if they become successful in competition - you'll see this tightening up of form, an increase in economy of motion, and the typical thing that changes is the landing spot. first contact is made with the sole of the foot under the knee, not in front of the knee. a faster cadence is the byproduct. the faster cadence isn't the point, but it often tracks with better foot placement.

This is interesting - went for a mile run to try it out and much less impact on foot and knee - thanks for this
Quote Reply
Re: Comfortable/Durable shoe inserts [Benaldo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Benaldo wrote:
Slowman wrote:
i actually think the cadence change may be based on sound reasoning. i wouldn't focus on cadence, but i do think most untutored runners tend to overstride. if you just follow runners from, say, their freshman years in high school thru to their senior years, and into college - if they become successful in competition - you'll see this tightening up of form, an increase in economy of motion, and the typical thing that changes is the landing spot. first contact is made with the sole of the foot under the knee, not in front of the knee. a faster cadence is the byproduct. the faster cadence isn't the point, but it often tracks with better foot placement.



This is interesting - went for a mile run to try it out and much less impact on foot and knee - thanks for this


here's an illustrative video, tho i do have some issues with the explanation:



i agree, pretty much, with what the author says here, with this minor nitpick. when you use as your model for running haile gebrselassie, you're cherry picking the shortest guy in the field. short runners are forced into a bit of overstriding. in my opinion, just the most perfect run forms i've seen throughout my life have been the north africans, starting with mohammed ghammoudi, then said ouita, noureddine morceli, hicham el guerrouj. here's a WR by el guerrouj (and there's a slowtwitch forum regular mentioned in this video):



in my brief HS experience, there was one thing that taught me how to run fast or, to put it a better, way, to run comfortably while running at a fast pace. when we did speed workouts - say, repeat quarters - if you tuck right in, as tight as you can, to the guy in front of you, this forces you to clip your stride a bit (or you get a spike in the knee). it forces you not to overstride. this actually taught me how to run with a proper footfall. your whole body relaxes, as much as you can relax running a 62 or 63 second quarter.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Feb 7, 21 12:34
Quote Reply
Re: Comfortable/Durable shoe inserts [Benaldo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Benaldo wrote:
So, your orthotics - I assume you're removing the foot pad from the Hokas in order to put the orthotics in? Curious about your shoe set-up. And how you work the orthotics in. She also has orthotics from her podiatrist.

I remove the foot pad from all of my shoes, including my Hokas and put my orthotics in. I find that my orthotics do not fit in all shoes, I just have to find shoes that they do fit in.

Has she tried wearing orthotics in her cycling shoes? I have found that wearing my orthotics or G8 Performance insoles have made a big difference to my ability to run off the bike.
Quote Reply