Fully agree,

The ones seeking validation are the riders who jump from club to club, are reluctant to help their team and do little to help organize races. The riders who enjoy the process and racing against their peers tend to stay a lot longer in the scene and help with organization of club, putting on races and giving back to the sport.

That said, I'm in Colorado now and stepping up a level always means getting your head kicked in. Ridiculous number of former pros and Olympians who are always a couple of levels stronger. The reluctance to upgrade is huge. Had one cat 3 rider who got 37-38 points each season (40 was compulsory upgrade) and would then disappear until next season. After 120 accumulated upgrade points over 3 years he messed up by 1 day and went over the 40 points in 12 months rule and was forcibly upgraded.

One of my happiest days was getting enough points to upgrade to cat 3. Riders here moan when that happens.

I now get to race AG against a world record holder, multiple US champions and former pros. It's a victory when I finish in the top half of a race, a pack finish is always a source of pride. But it's a privilege to be able to race against them and hang on.

I also remember one rider on the East coast, Curley I think, who has something like 50 national titles but still races Cat 3. Never understood that.

Haha correct, in Belgium it seems a lot more competitive. We have quite a high level teams/club triathlon series and most of those guys and girls will ofcourse also compete in other Sprint, Olympic, 70.3,.. triathlons outside of that competition. I often do races in the Netherlands as well since I live 5km from the border and I agree that is a lot more about participation there. The top guys and girls are probably the same level as in Belgium but the average level of the entire field of competitors seems lower which makes it a bit easier to finish higher up in the rankings. My non-drafting Olympic PR is a 2h06' something so still quite far off :p

I agree that the regular elite/top-competitors seem to be similar strength just don't have the depth of field here (not even talking about the high-level pro's where Belgium seems to be MUCH stronger). For the 1.50 I was talking about a 1/4 distance (1000m swim, no draft); these are more common around here (don't think I can go faster than 1.57 in an OLY either ... and that won't be sufficient for OA podium )

Replying to thread....I saw a coaching friend post a article about online "digital doping"....Assumed it was an article by a cycling publisher, and what do you know....Yahoo News writes an article about it. Not that Yahoo news is the NYT or anything like that, I find it interesting when "non sport" related publications create news stories from your sport.

https://www.yahoo.com/...world-133601658.html

Cliff notes version...goes into the act of mis calibrating PM, etc and even goes into the UCI's pro riders who've been banned for various reasons "accidentally changing the file"....."uploaded the wrong file after bike computer died".

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Reality bites. Zwift doesn't, that what I would describe it. Take Zwift's numbers w/ a lot of salt.

Agree with this. I did a three hour zwift race and strava had me with 54 seconds in zone 1 (ranging from zero to 55% ftp). That would never happen outside. You get very little micro-rests in zwift group rides especially on flattest courses like tempus fugit

3 Hours on Zwift can be absolutely brutal at higher efforts. There is little rest, even on the descents unless you want to lose the wheel of others. I can ride 4 hours outside with no problem, but 3 hour races/fondos on Zwift will knock me out for days.

To me this is the most important aspect. Out on the real road, I can draft in a pack doing 30+ when the guys on the front are well over 4.0 and I'm well below 4.0. In Zwift I find when riding in a blob where the guys on the front are at 4.0 I will get shot out the back if I'm at 3.8. I don't find draft dynamics to work properly in a blob. I've gotten better drafts with just 1 rider in front of me in Zwift.

It's fine as a workout. I find Zwift rides significantly harder than real rides. You just have to ignore the speed and distance and think of it as time spent at whatever wattage you are doing.

Also, the reaction of blobs in Zwift to somebody attacking the front is super instant versus real life.

Real life, when a group rounds a corner and the front three or four guys give if a dig.........the peloton accordions around the corner and a big gap forms. This is because of the physical limitation of bikes not running into each other and riders having to move out of the blob in real life to catch the breakers. And the willingness of the riders on the front in real life to change pace.

In Zwift, somehow all the riders in the blob instantly and magically flow around each other to work in unison and anybody off the front is always just really pulling the blob. And magically fit 30 riders within the space of a single small car. Just look at real life crit videos of the length and width of the groups. Same for a smaller road race. It isn't all 50 riders within the space of a couple cars. It's usually strung out more. Especially since Zwift worlds utilize both directions of roads usually, the USAC "stay in the right lane" rule is essentially in effect.

If you've ever raced in real life with the lane rule in effect, you can really observe how the dynamics really work versus in Zwift.

This is why unless it's way uphill, it's nearly impossible to get a real breakaway group formed in Zwift.

It's easier in real life when the guys on front don't instantly respond to the break (or they are your teammates blocking) and the break gets some space up the road.

I think the coding and management of that in Zwift would just be darn near impossible to resolve. You'd have to have code that forms a "table" of rider positions in a blob and manage their positions and required power to move out of those positions.

Reviving this thread...curious to see what people's thoughts are now, with the power dynamic 4 in place. Also, with the updates in racing enforcements, etc.

I was on a wheel on wahoo snap for about 3.5 years. I upgraded to a wheel off Neo 2T and the realism in the climbs/decents got so much better. I’ve really been enjoying the climb portal as a result. Climbing the alp is night and day different too.

I have to put out way more power and torque to keep the pedals turning on the higher percent grades. I now have a sub 1 hr alp time!

The aero simulations havent improved. More annoying is when auto-brake is applied, when it's not even needed.

It's still more than serviceable for group rides, but Zwift absolutely stinks for racing.

having done my first season of bike racing..... in zwift/rouvy you can ride through the pack. while in real life you can be blocked by other riders - which is frustrating ...now if they would add blocking that would be interesting

I won a race with an early break around 600m, normally I'd be very quickly (unrealistically) caught, so thats good. Movement of avatar in the group also seems better. I've always felt drafting is ineffective in Zwift even with a powerup. Sitting at the back of a pack should feel a lot easier than it does, add a draft boost and it makes a tiny bit of difference. IRL - if you're sitting on someone's wheel right at the back of a large pack it should feel hell easy, even at a decent pace. But I suppose that's a good thing.

Race tactics are fairly similar (Zwift vs reality) especially in a crit. I think they need to add some feature that makes it easier to make a break stick. It would encourage more people to make breaks. I did a race this week and made a break and hammered it for 5mins+, the group easily caught me. IRL that group would probably break-up.

Actually, most folks find the draft is TOO strong in zwift.

You find out quick the moment a large group you're riding with gaps you for whatever reason. I've been in blobs where I'm easily the primarily puller out in front, and even have to hold back continuously because of the autofence out in front, but if I have to stop for a second to adjust a towel or whatever, and I fall even 5 seconds behind the blob, it can be near impossible to catch up - even doing 150% the wattage I was just riding out in front. What took 200w to stay out in front, now requires 350+ watts just to slowly claw your way back, and that can often mean holding that 350w for several minutes just to make it back if the gap is bigger than that.

 

Actually, most folks find the draft is TOO strong in zwift.


My experience is that if you are just riding around "solo" on Zwift on your own on the virtual road bike for a few hours, even if I deliberately stay off packs, I always end up with high average speed. I figure the lack of traffic lights, unrealistic speed on turns and hair pins and constant drafting effect of biking around thousands.

However, true pack riding is way harder on Zwift. IRL, inside a pack, you can go 100-120 W at 40-45 kph on flats. You never get such a true drafting effect on Zwift. For me Zwift races are always full on Z4 and higher efforts.

You're both right. Engner66 is 100% correct that coming off the pack in Zwift very typically results in a savage chase to get back on, even though the pack isn't full gas. Even on social rides.

You're also right sitting that sitting in a race pack in real life can be pretty "easy," but seldom is in Zwift.

These things seem contradictory, but somehow in Zwift's version of physics, somehow isn't.

This was posted upthread, but the "drafting advantage" on Zwift has always been most manifest in terms of advantage of group speed to unrealistic levels.

It has never been about energy saving, but always about how a group of 8+ can achieve speeds that small groups (2-4) and solo riders could never achieve on their own. The most egregious situation is relative speeds of various sized groups down a prolonged descent, and how a group of 20 coasting riders will invariably catch a group of 3-5 who are pedaling and had a 5-10 second advantage. On the flip side, trailing riders 1 second back can easily find themselves 10+ seconds back even on -3% to -5% grades that are shorter than 2 km, all despite the group coasting while the rear going 133% harder or more.

Throughout the iterations, I think they made it just slightly easier for smaller groups to stay away, but it's still nowhere near what the experience is like IRL. Zwift has never managed to solve this issue through in-game physics.

Spot on as always.

Yeah that's true. Those time when I look at Spotify to change the song, then suddenly I've been dropped and it's a nightmare to get back on.