I stand by my claim that the NBA has a pretty lax policy for PED testing. There is no open book on how often, who gets tested, or open scrutiny of the most successful players. The only ones who ever get penalized in the NBAare non-A-list players, and we know from comparably popular sports that haven't been rigorously tested, the statistical reality of PED positive testing amongst top players.

At some point, this will break into the open, maybe decades from now, but there will be a reckoning.

And I definitely still disagree with you about LeBron being slower and less explosive. He SHOULD be noticeably slower due to age and wear and tear, but the proof is there - he is not any less athletic at 30+. The dude is STILL HIGH FLYING and every bit as high flying as he was at 21.

This is from yesterday's top 10, look at Lebron go high flying for the chasedown block at 55seconds into the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20rFkXcYnCI
(Lebron scored 46 freaking points in that game.)

He does this EVERY NIGHT he plays. He is in the top 10 nearly every time he plays - for super athletic plays. And he put up the best numbers of his career last year, and almost equivalent this year early on. Lebron is absolutely the worst example of someone who is in physical decline. Statistically, you know this cannot be true - you cannot be arguably the NBAs top player (active) AND put up career-best numbers AND somehow be dealing with a significant age-related decline. LeBron right now is every bit athletic and high flying as the 20 year olds around him, and he's suffered no dropoff from speed, agility, and flight compared to his 20s.


Again, a great example of a (more realistic) athletic decline but still solid player due to skill and experience compensation is Blake Griffin. He was a dunk-machine nonstop in his first year in the NBA. Now he's still good, but you rarely see him in the dunk highlights anymore, and that's fine - he's over 30 now as well, and to me, that's the normal progression of loss of explosiveness with age.

I think we really have no idea because the way we measure this is sports performance and not really in a lab with control training and environment. In my opinion, what really drives performance is money. Just a few years ago many athletes could not make a living if they continue playing sports past 20 something. Now, there are many sports where there is enough money going around or other ways to make money using their "fame" that they can keep training.
So more and more we see the age limit being pushed further and further because athletes can continue to make a living staying in the sport.
At the same time you might have some athletes make "too much" money and lose their hunger or incentive to continue training.

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Tiago
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Sponsors: : Blueseventy :

Same equipment as before too? Or new super bike and shoes?

I def disagree that it's just money.

Nobody breaks AG world records for money, yet they keep on falling. And pro triathletes who are putting up awesome results in tri at age 45+ are not in the top 5 worldwide where the real money is at, even if they one-off a crushing performance.

I definitely think better theories on training and recovery is a HUGE factor. No more 'train til you drop' philosophies which work for the absolute hardest folks, but often even break them for true long-term high performance over decades.

And I do think higher profile of sports in general due to internet and global penetratation is a factor leading to a better pool of athletes in the 40+ category. Just one generation away, in my parents' generation, if you were over 30, you were widely considered 'over the hill' and expected to drop out of sports completely, even if you had been a great athlete. Sure, some folks stuck with it, but the pool of masters athletes was tiny compared to now.

In triathlon, arguably the best performances in the AG (not pro) range come at 37-45, so many years around that to crush it. Triathlon barely even existed in my parents' generation!

Well something is off with the splits because the top women biked the same as the men, and while they are not uberbikers, the men there are not BOP either. Unless of course the women there are just that good!

Results here: https://my.raceresult.com/164041/#1_18C6BE

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Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer

You should get her a husband that's not a slacker w/ the kids! hahahaha

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Dave Scott 1994 Ironman, age 40.

Ride was slightly short, but correcting for that puts Kyle at a 2.01 ride. He would have a fair claim to being an uberbiker if he were able to race an international field.
Teresa is that good. The race was peculiar in having the women start at the same time as the men (for elites) so Teresa had people to ride with for once instead of being off the front on her own like every other race. She still rode as my modelling had forecast...

On the topic of age - with an allowance for the ride distance Cam Brown would still have done a 3.48 overall. Here is an index of his performances at that race since 1999 (with short years corrected)


At 48 he just did his fastest time. It helps that the field has improved but it's still very impressive that he has improved with the younger athletes.

To be clear, you are conflating (1) personal primes with (2) the ability to compete at a top level against others (or perhaps even beat others notwithstanding the personal decline).

Brady (I don’t know Rebellin and don’t know Torres’ swim times Off the top of my head) hit his prime probably 10 years ago. He is still able to compete at a very high level compared to others. But, compared to himself, there’s a noticeable decline that occurred long ago.

There's a pretty big gap between what I'm saying and you think I'm saying. Maybe that's my fault, but you're really responding to a point different from the one I'm making.

The general point I'm making is that in ball or team sports, you can be the absolute best in the game with one skillset as a young man, and still the best with a different skillset as a relatively older one. Blake Griffin is an example of someone who was really good with one skillset, and is hanging around and relevant with a different one. He's the basketball equivalent of a power pitcher who developed a breaking ball when his velocity declined. But he's not a good example of what I'm talking about, or the subject at hand (i.e., being "on top.").

Lebron was the best player in the world in his early 20s and remains so as a very different player today. He has not undergone significant physical decline, you seem determined to believe I'm saying he has. He is not slow, but he's slower than he was. He's quite explosive, but less so than he was. While he had great court vision/passing skills those got better. He added a real post game maybe 8 or 9 years ago. He added that little left side hook after that, etc. All that compensated for no longer being so much faster than any other forward out there, etc.

Here's an article that goes into detail with more actual data talking about the very different skillset he wields today, and noting that his physical decline has been slow but real. 538 - What makes Lebron James so great

What I bolded above is EXACTLY what I'm saying and demonstrably true (other than the characterization of significant decline, I'm NOT saying significant). In team sports you can be a lesser athlete but superior player. There's a lot more to it than how quickly you can get from point A to point B. If you're better at the other stuff, it's less important how quickly you can get from a to b (or other characteristics). No one questions that Jerry Rice is the greatest WR to ever play, and he ran a middle of pack 40.

Anyway, all I'm saying is it's less obviously true in endurance sports. One can imagine a long course triathlete who depends on superior run ability becoming a better swimmer to compensate for decline in his run as he ages (or whatever). Most of the skills you develop are out of sight. Train smarter, recover better, etc. At the end of the day all that matters is how quickly you get from point a to point b. Not true in other arenas.

I actually agree with the (obvious) general sentiment we're discussing that yes, as you age, you first lose explosiveness and burst power.

On point, though, my discussion however were related to your original posts specifically regarding Lebron:

"As explosive as he was at 23? Not close. Still explosive generally sure."

As I said, Lebron is literally the WORST example of the age-related loss of speed and explosivity. Even that article you mentioned makes literally ZERO claims of demonstrable loss of speed, jumping, etc. James has just learned to tune his game better to pick his spots better and use less energy.

One proven statistic of note regarding him is that his AVERAGE court run speed is amonst if not the slowest in the league. This clearly isn't because he is a slow runner - he has acknowledged in interviews that he saves his energy actively during the game for key moments (so he won't' go for every chasedown block.)

Sure, he's picked up shooting and other things, but he's lost so little physical ability that he is literally indistinguishable from the other high-flying 20 year olds in the league today.

So if you're going to say he's 'not close' to as athletic as his 20s I'd definitely say that is outright wrong, even if I do agree strongly with the general premise that you quickly lose burst power and sprint speed as you age up out of the 20s and early 30s. LeBron is glaring example of someone who is shockingly resistant to this loss and should be the last person quoted as 'not even close' to prior physical ability.

Kelly Slater professional surfer is 49 and still competing with the pro age average is 23. 11 time world champion and still going strong reached semifinals of contest in December in Hawaii.
Truly the GOAT of Surfing perhaps the GOAT of all sports

I wasn't talking about age group. By definition age group competition is not the top.

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Tiago
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Sponsors: : Blueseventy :

If you're talking about only the absolute top, you have to then discount all the 'almost-top' performances that everyone here has mentioned as well as not being good enough to be considered. Winning competitive IMs at 40+ and setting AG world records then shouldn't be considered, as it's not the same as winning Kona IM or winning the ITU world championship.

Kelly is definitely the GOAT of surfing still competing at a very high level but he has almost no chance of winning another world title. This season with a single contest he might have his best shot if he makes the final, but no way he will ever win a running points season again.
Like others mention, he is still competing at top level but not at his top level anymore.
But nobody though that that was possible to do at his age.
Peter Mel (51) paddling at Mavericks a few days ago was pretty impressive too.

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Tiago
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Sponsors: : Blueseventy :

OK, bit of clarity. I meant the sentiment that he's just as explosive today as his early twenties is "not close to true," more so than he's "not close to as explosive."

Setting AG records by definition eliminates the how old part of the question. People will be able to set age group records at 100 years of age. They will be at the top for the age group.
The question can be about 1. one's top performance in their lifespan and 2. top performance by all individuals. It is likely the factors affecting each one will be different.

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Tiago
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Sponsors: : Blueseventy :

You tell me

He rides a Merida Tri specific bike and runs in Hokas.

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I ride:
Cervelo - P-Series/R3
GT - Sensor Carbon Expert

Supporters - Flo Cycling, Mount Bikes

Which hokas?

Anyways 2 tri guys who are mature that inspire me.. dan stubleski and robb skaggs. At their age can get pro card

This also begs for the discussion about testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). That said, I understand one cannot race if they are on this because it will be classified as cheating. All I am saying is that this has a profound effect on slowing down the aging process and I will argue has an amazing impact on the quality of life for those people that have greatly diminished natural testosterone production.

We are talking about a dose that only keeps you in the healthy zone where you should be at. I am not talking about body builder doses which is 4x higher.

I also think that if a person strongly adheres to a holistic health and fitness plan (mediterranean diet, quality sleep patterns, stretching, core strengthening exercises), they can prolong their performance. When we are young (and stupid ;) ) we don't need to think about those things the same because the body can be abused and recover much better.

It has been mentioned in another reply...HIIT work and weight training is likely lacking with most aging athletes when in fact they could use it more.

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________________
Adrian in Vancouver

I’m not sure what his race shoes are. I’d imagine the carbon race shoes but can’t confirm.

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I ride:
Cervelo - P-Series/R3
GT - Sensor Carbon Expert

Supporters - Flo Cycling, Mount Bikes

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Let food be thy medicine...