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Re: Swimming - does it get easier! [Jason AZ] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie
Jan 8, 21 15:48
Post #26 of 38 (1098 views)
 When you turn your head to breath

--------

small note of clarity. It's rotation from the hips that allows your head to rotate on the same plane as your hips, not a "turn" of the head. I note the clarity because that hip rotation will also help with getting the reach and extension in the stroke which leads to the early vertical foream and high elbow catch.
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Swimming - does it get easier! [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BobAjobb
Jan 8, 21 16:17
Post #27 of 38 (1089 views)
B_Doughtie wrote:
When you turn your head to breath

--------

small note of clarity. It's rotation from the hips that allows your head to rotate on the same plane as your hips, not a "turn" of the head. I note the clarity because that hip rotation will also help with getting the reach and extension in the stroke which leads to the early vertical foream and high elbow catch.


Yeah. Defo. Great point.

I should have been more accurate on what I wrote there.

(One reason I try to breathe every 3 strokes particularly when doing longer distance OW, is that the regular rotation to both sides helps me keep my form and keep the extension for a more efficient stroke - it also ensures I'm using core muscles and the 'unwinding' of the rotation in my core inc my lats to give propulsion and not trying to do it from just my arms and shoulders.).
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Re: Swimming - does it get easier! [djh] [ In reply to ]
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NAB777
Jan 8, 21 22:05
Post #28 of 38 (1063 views)
djh wrote:
I’m a cyclist really, but going to eventually get into tri. Starting with swimming. After a length it seems I’m gasping for air and my HR is only about 120.

How can I ride my bike at 350w for an hour and can’t even get into endurance zones without feeling like I can’t breathe.

Any tips for beginners ?

Only 350w?
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Re: Swimming - does it get easier! [djh] [ In reply to ]
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snail
Jan 9, 21 0:10
Post #29 of 38 (1053 views)
djh wrote:
I’m a cyclist really, but going to eventually get into tri. Starting with swimming. After a length it seems I’m gasping for air and my HR is only about 120.

How can I ride my bike at 350w for an hour and can’t even get into endurance zones without feeling like I can’t breathe.

Any tips for beginners ?

My first thought reading this is you might be holding your breath. Make sure you aren’t doing this and when you have your face in the water, to slowly exhale until the next breath. Also check your positioning .. your head isn’t going high up or legs sinking.

It’s worth getting swim lessons to learn good technique when you are starting to swim. Out of the 3 sports, swimming is the most technical. Once you know how to swim, bad habits are hard to break. Also def learn to breathe bilateral. It’ll help when swimming in tricky open water conditions.

I can’t say it gets easier, especially after you’ve built your base. As it’s quite technical there’s always room for improvement and new things to learn all the time.

Good luck
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Re: Swimming - does it get easier! [hiro11] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie
Jan 9, 21 6:00
Post #30 of 38 (1025 views)
My recommendation: keep hitting the pool, you'll slowly gain fitness. After you have a good baseline, get some coaching

——-
I would get coaching over fitness gains for ppl in this scenario. Fitness when you don’t know what your really doing doesn’t really help. Getting a baseline for a non swimmer who doesn’t really know wha they are doing even if they get some online advice etc just sets in bad habits and does likely nothing for efficiency.

There are many cheap swim coach options out there for most ppl. Get in front of a coach ASAP and “know” what it should feel like and then you’ll be better when your alone.
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jan 9, 21 6:12
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Re: Swimming - does it get easier! [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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apmoss
Jan 9, 21 14:06
Post #31 of 38 (987 views)
"My experience it takes at least a month of swimming at least 2x/week and 1,000 yards per session to get into a groove."

This, and even, a lot more.

I was a good HS swimmer, a bad college swimmer, and am now a pretty good triathlon swimmer. I'm also kind of old. Recently I swam in the AM in a lane next to an average HS boys team. They were:


  1. somewhat-less-than-Phelpsian in their physique
  2. exhibiting some 'unique' approaches to form
  3. clearly unmotivated teenagers at practice during winter vacation*


and they smoked me when they were sprinting, doing sets of 200s, kicking, you name it. They were just cruising up and down the pool like it was nothing.

Here's why they were so much better than me:

They swim 3 hours a day, six days a week for 4 months straight.

And I swim 6 hours per week, total, during a swim-heavy phase of training, for maybe 6 weeks at a time.

So, it gets easier, but you really have to put in the hours, laps, etc.

*I was all of these things in HS, and am often still most of them. I'm not throwing stones, here :-)
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Re: Swimming - does it get easier! [apmoss] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir
Jan 9, 21 15:19
Post #32 of 38 (971 views)
apmoss wrote:
"My experience it takes at least a month of swimming at least 2x/week and 1,000 yards per session to get into a groove."

This, and even, a lot more.

I was a good HS swimmer, a bad college swimmer, and am now a pretty good triathlon swimmer. I'm also kind of old. Recently I swam in the AM in a lane next to an average HS boys team. They were:


  1. somewhat-less-than-Phelpsian in their physique
  2. exhibiting some 'unique' approaches to form
  3. clearly unmotivated teenagers at practice during winter vacation*


and they smoked me when they were sprinting, doing sets of 200s, kicking, you name it. They were just cruising up and down the pool like it was nothing.

Here's why they were so much better than me:

They swim 3 hours a day, six days a week for 4 months straight.

And I swim 6 hours per week, total, during a swim-heavy phase of training, for maybe 6 weeks at a time.

So, it gets easier, but you really have to put in the hours, laps, etc.

*I was all of these things in HS, and am often still most of them. I'm not throwing stones, here :-)


It is quite amazing how the finer details of technical swimming tend to get overwhelmed at the AG non-elite (and especially triathlon AG!) swim levels - by tons of swim training.

So many folks here and elsewhere keep going "but those 12 year old girls are so fast - must be some trick with technique - can't be their fitness/strength in the wate", "man it was great that they started at age 5", etc. but in the vast majority of cases it comes down to the reality that those competitive swimmers (including the 12 year old girls) who are crushing all us motivated AG triathletes in swimming - are swimming 3, if not 4-5x more than a typical triathlete - for YEARS.

I too you have seen some spectacular example of 'unique' technique by HS-aged kids who were smoking the pants off me, swimming at sub 1:15/100 pace for distance. One guy had a underwater x-over that went almost completely to the opposite side of his body it was so bad. One guy had one of the biggest fishtail wobbles I've ever seen. Several others had so much extra wasted body motion that it was hard to watch them. All of them crushed me bad despite my obsession with technique.
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Re: Swimming - does it get easier! [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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djh
Jan 9, 21 17:33
Post #33 of 38 (947 views)
Good advice in here, thanks all.

I guess i'll stick at it!
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Re: Swimming - does it get easier! [djh] [ In reply to ]
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SharkFM
Jan 9, 21 19:17
Post #34 of 38 (924 views)
It helps to have 1. Great posture and shoulder/spine flexibility, but that's just the starting point. This is where kids begin.

2. Then you have be able to breathe and control your diaphragm, independent of the muscles used through the chest wall, for stroking.

3. Furthermore, there is timing and rhythm involved at a 6/8 time signature, which is odd because everything else tends to be 1-2-1-2 or 4/4

Going back to kids - they can get pretty fast in a couple of years, swimming an 8 month of 3x per week. From the outset they are working on their skill set.

Adults generally are pretty ugly starting off, because of #1. I went from gasping for air hanging off lane ropes after 50M to hell-ya any distance, bring it on!!
Took six or seven years tho.
Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com
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Re: Swimming - does it get easier! [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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apmoss
Jan 10, 21 14:53
Post #35 of 38 (861 views)
"From the outset they are working on their skill set"


You know, I should give this part of HS or even very casual age group swimming more credit than I did above. In addition to monster hours, these swimmers have a coach on the deck with them for all those laps, too.
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Re: Swimming - does it get easier! [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded
Jan 10, 21 16:49
Post #36 of 38 (840 views)
lightheir wrote:


It is quite amazing how the finer details of technical swimming tend to get overwhelmed at the AG non-elite (and especially triathlon AG!) swim levels - by tons of swim training.

So many folks here and elsewhere keep going "but those 12 year old girls are so fast - must be some trick with technique - can't be their fitness/strength in the wate", "man it was great that they started at age 5", etc. but in the vast majority of cases it comes down to the reality that those competitive swimmers (including the 12 year old girls) who are crushing all us motivated AG triathletes in swimming - are swimming 3, if not 4-5x more than a typical triathlete - for YEARS.

I too you have seen some spectacular example of 'unique' technique by HS-aged kids who were smoking the pants off me, swimming at sub 1:15/100 pace for distance. One guy had a underwater x-over that went almost completely to the opposite side of his body it was so bad. One guy had one of the biggest fishtail wobbles I've ever seen. Several others had so much extra wasted body motion that it was hard to watch them. All of them crushed me bad despite my obsession with technique.

Getting kids swim fit without focussing on technique is different in some ways to getting out of shape middle-aged folk swim fit without focussing on technique. Generally kids float, adults don't, especially men and poor body position is probably the biggest inhibiting factor that affects adult onset swimmers. Closely followed by poor catch. So in some ways technique is more important for adults, not just for performance, but injury prevention.
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Re: Swimming - does it get easier! [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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SharkFM
Jan 10, 21 20:51
Post #37 of 38 (812 views)
zedzded wrote:
lightheir wrote:


It is quite amazing how the finer details of technical swimming tend to get overwhelmed at the AG non-elite (and especially triathlon AG!) swim levels - by tons of swim training.

So many folks here and elsewhere keep going "but those 12 year old girls are so fast - must be some trick with technique - can't be their fitness/strength in the wate", "man it was great that they started at age 5", etc. but in the vast majority of cases it comes down to the reality that those competitive swimmers (including the 12 year old girls) who are crushing all us motivated AG triathletes in swimming - are swimming 3, if not 4-5x more than a typical triathlete - for YEARS.

I too you have seen some spectacular example of 'unique' technique by HS-aged kids who were smoking the pants off me, swimming at sub 1:15/100 pace for distance. One guy had a underwater x-over that went almost completely to the opposite side of his body it was so bad. One guy had one of the biggest fishtail wobbles I've ever seen. Several others had so much extra wasted body motion that it was hard to watch them. All of them crushed me bad despite my obsession with technique.


Getting kids swim fit without focusing on technique is different in some ways to getting out of shape middle-aged folk swim fit without focusing on technique. Generally kids float, adults don't, especially men and poor body position is probably the biggest inhibiting factor that affects adult onset swimmers. Closely followed by poor catch. So in some ways technique is more important for adults, not just for performance, but injury prevention.



While it certainly appears that way to 99% of us, I disagree w/the statement that adults (men) are "sinkers". It's not true and I can explain.

What keeps the body afloat is your lungs. Exhale all air and you'll sink. The problem is the lungs are up in the chest, which is too far forward. However, with good spine alignment, proper muscle support and balance, you can lever your body up onto your lungs and float perfectly level! The more the chest can drop and shoulders come up (less hunchback) the swimming position improves. You can band-aid it but dropping your head to pool bottom, better - but you'll still be slower.

Now men, even top swimmers like Nathan Adrian, will ride a little lower due to that increased density. But this is a few mm's across a level body and obviously still fast. Not the lung-busting, speed-killing, anchor-dragging stuff we cyclists and runners experience when we've jumped in for the first time. I have that image of the Zeppelin in my mind right now - tail dragging crash and burn.
Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com
Last edited by: SharkFM: Jan 10, 21 20:52
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Re: Swimming - does it get easier! [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded
Jan 10, 21 22:43
Post #38 of 38 (800 views)
SharkFM wrote:
zedzded wrote:
lightheir wrote:


It is quite amazing how the finer details of technical swimming tend to get overwhelmed at the AG non-elite (and especially triathlon AG!) swim levels - by tons of swim training.

So many folks here and elsewhere keep going "but those 12 year old girls are so fast - must be some trick with technique - can't be their fitness/strength in the wate", "man it was great that they started at age 5", etc. but in the vast majority of cases it comes down to the reality that those competitive swimmers (including the 12 year old girls) who are crushing all us motivated AG triathletes in swimming - are swimming 3, if not 4-5x more than a typical triathlete - for YEARS.

I too you have seen some spectacular example of 'unique' technique by HS-aged kids who were smoking the pants off me, swimming at sub 1:15/100 pace for distance. One guy had a underwater x-over that went almost completely to the opposite side of his body it was so bad. One guy had one of the biggest fishtail wobbles I've ever seen. Several others had so much extra wasted body motion that it was hard to watch them. All of them crushed me bad despite my obsession with technique.


Getting kids swim fit without focusing on technique is different in some ways to getting out of shape middle-aged folk swim fit without focusing on technique. Generally kids float, adults don't, especially men and poor body position is probably the biggest inhibiting factor that affects adult onset swimmers. Closely followed by poor catch. So in some ways technique is more important for adults, not just for performance, but injury prevention.



While it certainly appears that way to 99% of us, I disagree w/the statement that adults (men) are "sinkers". It's not true and I can explain.

What keeps the body afloat is your lungs. Exhale all air and you'll sink. The problem is the lungs are up in the chest, which is too far forward. However, with good spine alignment, proper muscle support and balance, you can lever your body up onto your lungs and float perfectly level! The more the chest can drop and shoulders come up (less hunchback) the swimming position improves. You can band-aid it but dropping your head to pool bottom, better - but you'll still be slower.

Now men, even top swimmers like Nathan Adrian, will ride a little lower due to that increased density. But this is a few mm's across a level body and obviously still fast. Not the lung-busting, speed-killing, anchor-dragging stuff we cyclists and runners experience when we've jumped in for the first time. I have that image of the Zeppelin in my mind right now - tail dragging crash and burn.

I've never seen kids drag their legs the way a lot of AOS do. I saw one guy whose toes were almost hitting the bottom of the pool. You're right it can be rectified, but it's not that easy# and unless someone gets a video analysis or has a very good coach they are probably not going to be aware of it.

#I say it's not that easy, some very quickly sort it out, others just can't get a good body position no matter how hard they try.
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