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If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury
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Running has always been my limiter in triathlon. I will generally be within the top 15% of so in my age group with swimming and riding but have had to work hard from going from a middle of the pack runner to now being generally around the 25th centile.
Unfortunately I suffered a pretty nasty fractured tibia and am off all running for between 3-5 months at the moment. Still can't ride (probably a month or so away) and can do some swimming when the pain allows.
I am trying to focus on the positives, not that there are many......I want to come back from this injury laying the foundations to be a much better runner. I am in no rush.....70.3 worlds seem a long way off next year now....
I don't think I am a very efficient runner and feel like I run "heavy" and am not light on my feet.
As I view this as a major reset in my running, it is almost like I will be starting afresh when the time comes and I am allowed to run again. The running progression will be heavily supervised (ie distance/time).
What I was keen to hear from people were thoughts on if they had the chance to do it all again and develop the running muscle memory etc, what would you do in the early stages?
The key things I am thinking I would like to introduce are:
1. Incorporate more drills into my running (not sure which ones and how often though)
2. Re-dedicate myself to a strength and conditioning program
Would be keen to hear advice from others....I would love to get my running ability to the level of my swimming and biking and have a fair bit of time on my hands at the moment....
Feel free to send book suggestions, website, videos etc etc....
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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I had just over 3 years off after tearing my ankle ligament, then after surgery, rehab, literally 3 days after meeting my coach to put a plan together I tore a tendon in same ankle. Virtually same surgery, but even longer recovery. In both cases it was about 2 months of non weight bearing cast and then into the moon boot for 8-10 weeks. The tendon took longer to get the mobility and strength back. So that was when I was 43yo. But, after that I started running better than I ever have. I was always a 'meh' runner - strong cyclist and then 'big unit' runner. 1h50 half marathon sort.

But somehow (ok, a truck load of training and focus) I got that to sub 1:35, and but for a pulled hamstring 2 weeks before a marathon had nailed all the training runs and coach had me targeting a 3:15 ( perhaps a 3:20 would have been the reality).

I worked my way through a few different shoe combinations, updated orthotics, and a bucketload of physio.

I can't say what the outcome will be for you. No-one can from the far side of the interweb. But if you do 50% of the exercises you tell your physio you've done, ie 25% of what they tell you to do, then you will be in a good place. There will be days and weeks where things go well, then days and weeks you go backwards. Just got to keep with the long term focus.

One other thing, don't set a short term goal for motivation. Whilst this seems like it would be a sensible idea, then there's a good chance it will force you to 'rush the rehab'. And that is the very worst thing for the long term goal.
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [Duncan74] [ In reply to ]
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Duncan74 wrote:
I had just over 3 years off after tearing my ankle ligament, then after surgery, rehab, literally 3 days after meeting my coach to put a plan together I tore a tendon in same ankle. Virtually same surgery, but even longer recovery. In both cases it was about 2 months of non weight bearing cast and then into the moon boot for 8-10 weeks. The tendon took longer to get the mobility and strength back. So that was when I was 43yo. But, after that I started running better than I ever have. I was always a 'meh' runner - strong cyclist and then 'big unit' runner. 1h50 half marathon sort.

But somehow (ok, a truck load of training and focus) I got that to sub 1:35, and but for a pulled hamstring 2 weeks before a marathon had nailed all the training runs and coach had me targeting a 3:15 ( perhaps a 3:20 would have been the reality).

I worked my way through a few different shoe combinations, updated orthotics, and a bucketload of physio.

I can't say what the outcome will be for you. No-one can from the far side of the interweb. But if you do 50% of the exercises you tell your physio you've done, ie 25% of what they tell you to do, then you will be in a good place. There will be days and weeks where things go well, then days and weeks you go backwards. Just got to keep with the long term focus.

One other thing, don't set a short term goal for motivation. Whilst this seems like it would be a sensible idea, then there's a good chance it will force you to 'rush the rehab'. And that is the very worst thing for the long term goal.

Thanks, sage advice.
Unfortunately not my first rodeo so to speak, but probably the worst to date. My previous most serious injury had me off running for some time and even with a slow build up back into things I managed to get another stress fracture.
I have set some 2021 goals in my head....probably a bit like you running wise...I think I am a 1:40 half marathon PB at the moment off a low running base at the time, would love to get to the mid 1:30s, but 2021 is going to be the year to reset my running.....hopefully my swimming will be even stronger once I can swim/kick properly again.
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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I had a friend who had stress fractures in both tibias. He water ran for 3 months and 2 weeks after starting ground running he equaled his 5k PR. There are other great runners who have done the same (Bob Kennedy comes to mind back a number of years). I've used it before and after both knee scopes. It's super effective and will get you there although the boredom will be extreme. Just remember the carrot you're chasing and how important it is and you'll get there.

Kiwami Racing Team
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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Take a look at "Running Rewired" by Jay Dicharry. Probably the most comprehensive text on running biomechanics in relation to running performance and injury prevention.

CB
Physical Therapist/Endurance Coach
http://www.cadencept.net
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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I would find a PT that will help you rehab correctly. One that can do a gait analysis. Start the talk now so you have a plan.

The PT I go to has one of those treadmills that you can wear an airtight belt and they put air pressure under you to decrease the impact. you can run and rebuild cardio and slowly introduce the body to the impact shocks. I met a person who was going back into long distance after hip replacement doing this.
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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Work on strength and flexibility, and basically staying uninjured as you get back into running. IMO, don't try to force form. Running is something our bodies are well adapted to and they will find the most efficient form as you train.

Look at someone like Lionel Sanders. His running form is, in a word, "ugly," but he's fast as hell. He's not going to get faster by trying to run with Rinny's textbook form.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not a big fan of drills, but have found plyometrics helpful in getting away from plodding.. not much help to you now, the PT would not be happy.
Water running is a good idea, has minimized run fitness loss for me several times.

Dave Roche who used to post here is a very successful run coach now, a couple useful articles on supplemental exercise -
8-Minute Speed Legs | Trail Runner Magazine
3-Minute Mountain Legs | Trail Runner Magazine

I've also started doing his warmup routine,
“Wake-Up Legs” 4-Minute Warm-Up For Runners | Trail Runner Magazine
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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As you begin rehabbing your injury to a weight bearing bone it is important to make sure you are at optimal body weight. With your training down 90% to 100% of normal, your diet is going to play an important part in your recovery.

In addition to rehabbing the injury, I would start a swimming block as soon as you are physically able to help mitigate the loss of cardiovascular fitness.
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [Dinsky11] [ In reply to ]
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Dinsky11 wrote:
As you begin rehabbing your injury to a weight bearing bone it is important to make sure you are at optimal body weight. With your training down 90% to 100% of normal, your diet is going to play an important part in your recovery.

In addition to rehabbing the injury, I would start a swimming block as soon as you are physically able to help mitigate the loss of cardiovascular fitness.

This is a really good point. I was on zwift an hour after I had the cast cut off and the moon boot on. And then kept at the zwfting, building up from nothing to being a solid B grade in the next 3-4 months. That, combined with a good focus on my diet meant I dropped 20kg from where I'd got to after pretty much 3 years of being unable to run, before I even started jogging again.

And then it was with the 1min jog, 4 min walk *5 alternate days for a week, then 2/3*5, etc.
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [Duncan74] [ In reply to ]
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Duncan74 wrote:
Dinsky11 wrote:
As you begin rehabbing your injury to a weight bearing bone it is important to make sure you are at optimal body weight. With your training down 90% to 100% of normal, your diet is going to play an important part in your recovery.

In addition to rehabbing the injury, I would start a swimming block as soon as you are physically able to help mitigate the loss of cardiovascular fitness.


This is a really good point. I was on zwift an hour after I had the cast cut off and the moon boot on. And then kept at the zwfting, building up from nothing to being a solid B grade in the next 3-4 months. That, combined with a good focus on my diet meant I dropped 20kg from where I'd got to after pretty much 3 years of being unable to run, before I even started jogging again.

And then it was with the 1min jog, 4 min walk *5 alternate days for a week, then 2/3*5, etc.

Thanks both of you.
I have started a good swimming block at the moment and some decent upper body strength work. The pain is such that I feel I am still 3-4 weeks away from being able to turn the pedals over.
Optimal body weight is important, I know I have already put on a few kgs with this injury, I struggle to drop weight with swimming and strength work alone but also don't want to be back running again heavier than I am presently.
Fortunately the pools are open and I can swim a lot, just not that well at the moment because I cannot kick much!
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [playguy] [ In reply to ]
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playguy wrote:
I had a friend who had stress fractures in both tibias. He water ran for 3 months and 2 weeks after starting ground running he equaled his 5k PR. There are other great runners who have done the same (Bob Kennedy comes to mind back a number of years). I've used it before and after both knee scopes. It's super effective and will get you there although the boredom will be extreme. Just remember the carrot you're chasing and how important it is and you'll get there.

Thanks for this. I have the water running belt already, just not been able to get into it before even though my coach swears by it.
I think I need to swallow my pride a bit and just do it once I can!
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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Amnesia wrote:
playguy wrote:
I had a friend who had stress fractures in both tibias. He water ran for 3 months and 2 weeks after starting ground running he equaled his 5k PR. There are other great runners who have done the same (Bob Kennedy comes to mind back a number of years). I've used it before and after both knee scopes. It's super effective and will get you there although the boredom will be extreme. Just remember the carrot you're chasing and how important it is and you'll get there.


Thanks for this. I have the water running belt already, just not been able to get into it before even though my coach swears by it.
I think I need to swallow my pride a bit and just do it once I can!

It is quite possibly the most boring thing you'll do but it really, really helps and is effective. I've known many runners when even after recovery say they should do it once a week as it's so effective and non stress. They never do......;-)

Be careful with swimming as you'll need to take a bit of pressure off your push off the wall. I was unable to do that with knee issues so tethered and swam in place.

Good luck! Pay attention to good nutrition, and listen to your body. You'll be back, but be patient......it's december.

Kiwami Racing Team
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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I had just under a year off running due to ankle injury and issues with peroneal.

Like you my running is kind of ok. Mid 1.30s for a standalone HM. Definately not a strength.

I found the biggest thing that got me back and a little bit better was learning to run easy and being a slave to it, shorter runs and more frequency. Think I'd always been grey zoning before.
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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A precursor. Triathlon coaches in Southern California send their athletes to me when they can’t figure out why their athletes can’t progress in running and in some cases can’t avoid injuries. My expertise is the ability to watch people run and find their inhibitors. I’d love to say I have some secret to it but I don’t. It’s simply an empathetic expertise. If my simple tools will do the fixing great, which includes shoes, mobility work and drills. If my tools won’t work I have experts I can send the athletes to.

A case from this past week. My son is in the Military. He has one of those jobs I can’t tell you about. He put’s 80 lbs on his back and does 12 mile rucks at 10:25/mile pace in boots. His legs and entire body are chiseled. He was a 135lb 4 year letterman runner in high school. He’s been experiencing knee pain when he runs (In running shoes at 6:30-7:00 pace). For the holidays we had our best friends over for dinner. They are expert Paul Chek trained trainers. They spent 15 minutes with our son working on his stretching routine. Meanwhile I looked at his shoes and watched him run. Because of all the strength work and rucking he’s started to over reach when he runs. We went out and did some drills to remind his body what good position feels like. In high school every single practice for 4 years straight started with a slight warm up, drills and strides and then the actual training. Instantly he started running like his high school days. I gave him a pair of my shoes. Within two days the knee pain was gone.

From all of that here’s the way I would look at it:
Stress fractures are not normal.
In general your two thoughts drills and strength are exactly on point. When you get back to it incorporate drills and strides into your running every day you do a stand alone run. Drills remind your body what good form posture feels like, drills cement it in place. You should not have to think about running form. Think about good form on the drills and the rest will take care of itself. On the weights do all leg strength work but never ever sit down and do leg extensions. You are not a body builder.
If you were in San Diego I would send you to a couple experts. One for sure would be the people who were at our house. They would do a full body review to see if you have structural problems. They would then send you to a wholistic health practitioner who would do blood and poop analysis to rule out any possible issue that could be causing the stress fracture. Inflammation, Iron, Vitamin D just everything. You’d then go back to my friends and they would provide you the strength, stretching and mobility work to fix the structure and the diet changes to fix the internal. Finally you would come back to me and we’d do drills and strides together.

You have to determine what it’s worth? What is1 min/mile on your half marathon worth?The above would be a couple pairs of Alpha Fly Next %’s and would at least set your body up to safely absorb the training to get you to your goal.

I’m guessing you don’t live in Southern California so you have to start researching and interviewing. You are not looking for a single expertise alone. In fact you are looking for experts who admit up front, they don’t know everything but that they do know enough people in the area that combined do know everything. I think one of the suggestion below was massage. A great sports massage person knows virtually everyone in the area that carries an expertise for athletes.

Another short example. We moved to Germany so I could chase a dream and work for a big shoe company. I had to find my experts all over again. I was no longer in San Diego. I started by asking the runners and within a year I had 4 people on my speed dial that could fix me should I need it. A massage therapist, A Chiropractor, a wholistic healer and of course we had medical insurance.

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [SDJ] [ In reply to ]
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SDJ - great post! Wish I had gotten what your son received when I was doing the same thing!
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [SDJ] [ In reply to ]
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SDJ wrote:
A precursor. Triathlon coaches in Southern California send their athletes to me when they can’t figure out why their athletes can’t progress in running and in some cases can’t avoid injuries. My expertise is the ability to watch people run and find their inhibitors. I’d love to say I have some secret to it but I don’t. It’s simply an empathetic expertise. If my simple tools will do the fixing great, which includes shoes, mobility work and drills. If my tools won’t work I have experts I can send the athletes to.

A case from this past week. My son is in the Military. He has one of those jobs I can’t tell you about. He put’s 80 lbs on his back and does 12 mile rucks at 10:25/mile pace in boots. His legs and entire body are chiseled. He was a 135lb 4 year letterman runner in high school. He’s been experiencing knee pain when he runs (In running shoes at 6:30-7:00 pace). For the holidays we had our best friends over for dinner. They are expert Paul Chek trained trainers. They spent 15 minutes with our son working on his stretching routine. Meanwhile I looked at his shoes and watched him run. Because of all the strength work and rucking he’s started to over reach when he runs. We went out and did some drills to remind his body what good position feels like. In high school every single practice for 4 years straight started with a slight warm up, drills and strides and then the actual training. Instantly he started running like his high school days. I gave him a pair of my shoes. Within two days the knee pain was gone.

From all of that here’s the way I would look at it:
Stress fractures are not normal.
In general your two thoughts drills and strength are exactly on point. When you get back to it incorporate drills and strides into your running every day you do a stand alone run. Drills remind your body what good form posture feels like, drills cement it in place. You should not have to think about running form. Think about good form on the drills and the rest will take care of itself. On the weights do all leg strength work but never ever sit down and do leg extensions. You are not a body builder.
If you were in San Diego I would send you to a couple experts. One for sure would be the people who were at our house. They would do a full body review to see if you have structural problems. They would then send you to a wholistic health practitioner who would do blood and poop analysis to rule out any possible issue that could be causing the stress fracture. Inflammation, Iron, Vitamin D just everything. You’d then go back to my friends and they would provide you the strength, stretching and mobility work to fix the structure and the diet changes to fix the internal. Finally you would come back to me and we’d do drills and strides together.

You have to determine what it’s worth? What is1 min/mile on your half marathon worth?The above would be a couple pairs of Alpha Fly Next %’s and would at least set your body up to safely absorb the training to get you to your goal.

I’m guessing you don’t live in Southern California so you have to start researching and interviewing. You are not looking for a single expertise alone. In fact you are looking for experts who admit up front, they don’t know everything but that they do know enough people in the area that combined do know everything. I think one of the suggestion below was massage. A great sports massage person knows virtually everyone in the area that carries an expertise for athletes.

Another short example. We moved to Germany so I could chase a dream and work for a big shoe company. I had to find my experts all over again. I was no longer in San Diego. I started by asking the runners and within a year I had 4 people on my speed dial that could fix me should I need it. A massage therapist, A Chiropractor, a wholistic healer and of course we had medical insurance.

Thanks Dave, would you mind if we chatted offline?
I am not in the USA, am based down under. 4 stress fractures in total, all different areas. Been well tested for things like vitamin d, iron, bone density etc. Would love to hear your thoughts in private.
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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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I sent you a private message on the here on slowtwitch. I’d be happy to see what we can do. I’ll tell you the last bit of the message I gave you.

3 years ago a coach sent me one of his athletes. She was a good athlete but had suffered 3 stress fractures in a 14 month time frame. We sat and talked for 20-30 minutes just about her history and her super interesting and demanding work. I took her out to a bike path and had her do some running. Then I pulled out my phone and shot video. Instantly I saw what could be the problem. I asked many more questions (most of which I asked you in the private message). I went home did some research, watched her videos over and over and then gave her a running plan. It was unorthodox but I knew the coach would execute what I was telling her to do. She qualified and raced 70.3 worlds that year, had her best results in years and best of all she didn’t suffer another stress fracture. I would love to tell you that I just give you her plan and it will work. It doesn’t work that way. Every single athlete I’ve worked with is different.

Look through the questions. Ask me any follow up. I look forward to hearing from you.

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

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Re: If you had to learn to run again/coming back from a major injury [SDJ] [ In reply to ]
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SDJ wrote:
I sent you a private message on the here on slowtwitch. I’d be happy to see what we can do. I’ll tell you the last bit of the message I gave you.

3 years ago a coach sent me one of his athletes. She was a good athlete but had suffered 3 stress fractures in a 14 month time frame. We sat and talked for 20-30 minutes just about her history and her super interesting and demanding work. I took her out to a bike path and had her do some running. Then I pulled out my phone and shot video. Instantly I saw what could be the problem. I asked many more questions (most of which I asked you in the private message). I went home did some research, watched her videos over and over and then gave her a running plan. It was unorthodox but I knew the coach would execute what I was telling her to do. She qualified and raced 70.3 worlds that year, had her best results in years and best of all she didn’t suffer another stress fracture. I would love to tell you that I just give you her plan and it will work. It doesn’t work that way. Every single athlete I’ve worked with is different.

Look through the questions. Ask me any follow up. I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks Dave, have replied via email, very much appreciate your time.
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