Dundas Speed Shop

+1 on Dudas Speed Shop. Scott Kelly knows his stuff.

Getting in before anybody else does.

I personally wouldn't make Retul itself a priority. It's a bit like saying "does anybody know a joiner with a really good hammer?". Ok, it's not totally like that, but bear in mind Retul is just a fancy system for measuring, and a bit of a template for certain geometry ranges which are kind of orthodox.

But myself, I'd be looking for a talented and experienced joiner with a good eye and enthusiasm for meeting your personal needs.. I'd not worry too much about what hammer he or she is using.

Just my two penneth.

Cheers,
Rich.

Alex VanderLinden at Ziggy's in Kitchener

This^^^^

Retul is fine as a measuring device but only a tool. I had one; the fitter was lousy and the resulting fit was as well. Shop for the "guy" and let him pick his tools.

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Kiwami Racing Team

I like this statement.

A dynamic fit bike is a mandatory element of a good fit. A Retul bike, which I have FWIW, is a great example of that required element. All the other stuff associated with a "Retul" is just fancy ruler stuff. A good tool in the hands of a bad craftsperson is pretty useless.

Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

With respect to a lot of great fitters, outside of a couple of names that everyone knows (Slowman, Steinmetz, Ian Murray, Blyer, Phil Casanta, Paraic, Ivan, etc.) I wouldn't trust a fitter that wasn't using motion capture of some sort. Even those guys are going to - at least - use their phone camera to take video and slow things down.

No doubt, great fitters don't need great tools. Great tools don't make great fitters. But great fitters tend to use great tools.

And great fitters have a portfolio (not simply a list of 'testimonials')!

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

One more big vote for Scott Kelly at Dundas Speedshop.
Went twice over the years (new bike) and sent many people there, only got good words from the referrals.

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T. Guertin / Spocket

I think you know where I was going... Retul and motion capture as a *prescription* is wrong headed. Angles are an output not an input and motion capture is *descriptive* not prescriptive.

You make the sausage by following the process informed by your fit philosophy, not by looking at a complete sausage and working backwards.

Also, you can have multiple sausages with the same angles, the same ingredients, but wildly different tastes.

Every good fitter has motion capture... it's called the fitter's eye.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I did know where you are going. You are one of the best fitters in the world. But I wanted to qualify because I've seen your argument used inappropriately.

So while I agree with you philosophically, I've found practically it's not always the case. For example, I believe an inexperienced fitter that is using motion capture as *prescription* (and setting their sensors correctly) is often better than the local "expert" and his or her hand-waving.

When I was fitting, the other local fitters that couldn't fit 3-year old on a tricycle would argue about the glory and wonder of their decades of experience. They'd tell you about all the client injuries they healed like they were the Benny Hinn of bike fit.

They'd argue all of the "fancy" tools are crutches to make up for being a bad fitter. They'd use the same argument you provided - that motion capture as *prescription* is wrong-headed.

I used motion capture (Retul) and video. If the numbers didn't match what my eye saw, I checked and rechecked my sensor placement. I wasn't satisfied until I was happy with both the numbers and with what I saw. The tools made me better.

If I were just a rider looking for a good fitter, I'd want someone that uses motion capture and that publishes their work product (photos/video).

After all, the reason I know you're a good fitter isn't because I've met you or because other fitters speak highly of you or because you have some sort of pedigree. It's because I've seen the work product you've posted. And it's excellent.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Thanks for the compliment. Caveat though... I feel like my work is excellent, and the angles are all the same, because I'm sitting there looking at the rider while I fit. I see where I'm at and I see where I'm trying to go and I see the multiple ways of getting there. And I agree, in addition to a dynamic fit bike a portfolio is a must as well.

IMO, motion capture is a *sales* tool. Not in a pejorative sense. Both for selling the fit in the first place but also to gain the client's buy-in that the fit is right after the fact, because if the rider doesn't believe in the fit, the fit won't work. It's an appeal to authority, both before the client comes in the door and as the client heads out the door.

There are different ways to gain buy-in... I use *postural coaching* in conjunction with an "athlete driven" fit. I use quotes because I'm severely and secretly limiting the directions the person can steer or drive the fit, so that they arrive at an orthodox position, the place where I'm trying to go, but think it was their idea in the first place. They *own* it. And people who own something are way more likely to try to understand and maintain what they own vs. what they've received or been given. And as an athlete receives the coaching, they start to understand and internalize what a good fit is and what a good fit for them is. Basically I'm teaching them my job as I talk, not fitting them. After they leave me they basically know how to fit themselves and understand why we did what we did.

So in the end my position isn't that "motion capture as prescription is wrong headed" and is a cover for the "seeker/healer" fitters who think every person is a custom unicorn, my position is that the way you get an athlete's buy-in is by properly explaining what's happening to them and what you're doing to them on the dynamic fit bike and then confirming that with *results* of actual rides and races. And as such motion capture is an output that describes what happened, what you already knew before you even started was going to happen. Sure, I take videos and show them to the client as we work, to show and explain the progression which ends at the logical conclusion that motion capture confirms.

Anyway, in the end I feel the input is postural coaching, the output is the same old angles that everyone else has on their fits, mediated by athlete feedback and strategic direction as you make the changes on the dynamic fit bike. The motion is captured by the portfolio, the power meter, the ride and race results.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

In my case, I feel it was much more than that.

It was an ever-present training tool. It was constantly pushing back on me during a fit and when trying to reconcile the numbers to my eye or the numbers to the rider's feedback (or power meter's feedback, etc.). It was pushing back on me when I was trying to reconcile its data with what I was being taught. I think I have a pretty good "fitter's eye" and I credit my use of Retul for it.

But to your point - I never considered its output gospel. It was data to be considered and aggregated with everything else I was learning. But it was exceedingly rare that my fits went outside the prescribed ranges for a few core measurements - knee angle extension, knee angle flexion, hip angle closed, etc.

Other fitters may have learned using a different approach. But that's how I learned.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Don't get me wrong, having this discussion doesn't mean I don't respect you as a fitter or disagree with your methods... you too have a portfolio that speaks for itself.

I think we're saying the same thing, in that our tools have informed and improved our work because of the thought we've put into how we use them. It's interesting how we both get to the same place but by different methods and processes.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I think Slowman has written articles to that effect. Fits can start at different places and use different means but have to end at orthodoxy.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)