I think Hoka Carbon Rocket is 0 or 1 mm. Alphafly is 4mm. Most others are more.

But why carbon? Even Nike said that most of the gains during their study came from the foam. There are non-carbon superfoam shoes that are low drop (5mm or less), like the Razor 3 Hyper.

Are you looking for a race-day only shoe?

Personally, the Nike Next% have been just fine for racing for me, an Altra addict. Other than a 5 mile practice, two 70.3's and a 140.6 in the Next%, every mile I did the last two years was in an Altra shoe and almost always a Torin. I just hit 500 miles on my 3rd pair of Torins and have 300 on a 4th. Love them.

Hoka Carbon Rocket is 1mm. I tried one on at an event and I definitely like the feel of the Nike better. YMMV.

I love my altra torin but looking for something that could potentially help me in the speed department. I am not very fast to start with. My beat 10k on the treadmill was about 53 minute but usually closer to 1 hour.

I’m with one of the others on this thread. Don’t worry yet about Carbon Fiber. First simply try a lighter, bouncier foam and see your results. Your Torin is set at 21/21 on stack heights. The Escalante with bouncier foam is 20/20 and is 1/2 ounce lighter (size 9).

Now visualize this: You are asking the shoe to “make” you faster. We’ve all been there. There is not a runner alive who hasn’t looked at shoes for the answers.
For a living I spend an enormous amount of time watching runners as I do my research for the brands. From time to time I have athletes, mostly triathletes contact me to help them fix their form. That’s not what they ask for, it’s what I do, fix their form. In all of my watching runners and working with runners probably 10% of the time I say wow that’s the wrong shoe. More recently because of the fervor around the super shoes it’s probably gone up to 15% because many are jumping on the shoes without the efficiency in their running to see any benefit. I’m not saying that’s you I’m just stating some observations.

If you are on a treadmill put a mirror on one side:

1. Are you over-striding - Does your foot impact the treadmill in front of your hips?
2. Are you leaning back or leaning forward?
3. If you are leaning forward is it from your hips or from your ankles?
4. Are your hands down at your waist or at the middle of your rib cage?
5. Is that head of yours neutral or leaning back?

Go to the PTO website and fast forward on the men’s or women’s race and watch Paula Findlay, Annie Haug or Gustav Iden run. Visualize your self running in their position. Just visualize it. What do they do?

They lean forward from the ankle.
The impact on their foot is directly under their hip.
Their head is neutral.
Their hands are up and working.

Annie has a high Cadence, Gustav is relatively low, Paula is in between. Pick one of those three and visualize it. Tell yourself you are running like Gustav. Tell yourself you feel like Gustav. Or Paula or Annie.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

You've already gotten some fantastic answers here (particularly the expertise in the response from SDJ). I'll just add my experience as a long-time Altra fan.

My go-to shoe is the Torin Plush. A bit more cushion than the Torin and helps me to not feel beat up after longer runs, but it doesn't feel like I'm running on a couple of marshmallows like some other high-stack shoes I've tried. Any time I'm gonna be running race pace or faster during the workout, the Escalante Racer is perfectly stiff, light, and responsive (and it's nice they make somewhat normal colors now instead of those horrible marathon-themed versions). Vanish Flat for track work (incidentally, the Vanish does have a stiffening plate, but mininal foam and so won't give the bouncy effect).

All that said, my last 3 70.3s have been run in Vaporfly Next%. I never train in them or anything with a heel-toe drop (aside from a couple tune up runs during taper week) and the 8 mm drop has never caused me any issues. Ymmv.

As far as whether they make you faster, I agree with everything SDJ said and would only add that it's your money, if you really want the shoes then buy them and do some A/B testing and see how much faster they make you. The gains come as a percentage of your speed, so if they don't make you as fast as you want, then you'll just have to train better/harder/more :)

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Darren
https://www.strava.com/athletes/12385497

I also agree 100% with SDJ. I have tried the Vaporfly but the problem that I had was with the narrowness of the Vaporfly to box compared to the Escalante. I ended up getting blisters on the side of my big toes. I liked the Vaporfly and it made me slightly faster but then I couldn't run due to the blisters so I went back to the Escalante exclusively.

Thanks for the info. I'm also an Altra fan, with Torins and Escalate racers as my go to shoes. Given the arms race and potential performance gains looking to try the Endorphin Speeds as a half/full ironman race shoe.

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http://www.tri-monkey.co.uk

Yeah, those and the new Adidas (the ones Kandie wore in his recent HM WR in Valencia) look interesting. I've only got 47 km on my Next% so probably won't be buying any supershoes anytime soon. Very interested to hear what you end up buying and how your experience goes.

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Darren
https://www.strava.com/athletes/12385497

Standby for Newton, I have their unreleased shoe and it’s pretty nice. Not sure on the price point yet but I suspect it will blow Nike out of the water. If all goes well, the shoe should be released sometime in 2021.

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I don’t post enough so my opinions must be considered spam.

Hi, hope you don't mind the 3-month bump - I am running in Torin Plush but considering something else. The shoes fit my feet well but for varied pace runs, pickups, tempo etc they do feel a bit soft and sluggish. How much more responsive do you find the Escalante Racers, or do you know for a given effort if they are :15s/mile faster or any other metric? Thanks!

i use escalante racers, if anything they are lighter and less cushioned. they do not have carbon plate if that is what you are thinking. so being lighter yes you should be able to go faster but 15s is asking a bit much. maybe 1.5s

thanks for the feedback - yes, maybe that time savings was way off. i don't care about the carbon plate but i do like the general feel of altras, just looking for something with a little lighter and more responsive feel.

All my feedback will be subjective: haven't done any specific speed measurements as I don't race in the Escalante Racers.

I find the Racers to be significantly more responsive than the Torin Plush. The stack feels lower than it is due to the stiffer foam. And the shoe hugs my foot really well and feels super solid going around corners.

If you're looking for a shoe for faster workouts, I'd say the Racers are definitely worth a try. But be aware that I find a significant difference in stiffness/responsiveness between the Racers and normal Escalante (the latter feeling much more cushioned).

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Darren
https://www.strava.com/athletes/12385497

This is great feedback, thanks! Especially the cornering, I had not thought about that. I think I will give them a try. Do you run in the same size, Torin Plush and Escalante Racer?

I've run in Torin 4 rush, esscalante racers and 50km in to the new Riverias, all as training shoes. I've a pair of Next% for racing and they are significantly faster ~10-15s per km, after several test runs over the same routes and similar intensity. I plan on only using the Next % to race in and the odd training session to get used to them.

The Next% are way softer and very different feel due to the cushioning. I didn't notice any difference in stack, which I have done in the NB Beacon. With the start of each run in them I am mindful / focus on foot placemnet and over technique and keeping it normal, rather than changing because if the shoes.

I am blown away in how much faster they are for me.

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http://www.tri-monkey.co.uk

How is the sizing difference between your Torin 4 Plush shoes and the Nike Next%?

US 10 in both, the Next % is as expected as snug fit, compared.

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http://www.tri-monkey.co.uk

Thanks. That's good to know!

boy has this thread derailed... the nikes and altras complete different shoes even not accounting for speed boost features. nikes narrow and have a drop, altra wide toe box and zero drop

I'll even derail it further ... Vaporflys were too narrow but I've found that the Saucony Endorphin Speed (8mm drop) are wide similar to the Altra but have a great toe off which increases forward propulsion and therefore speed. Torin Plush 4.5 will be my trainer and the Endorphin Speed my race shoe. I throw in the New Balance Free Foam Beacon V3 (2E) (6mm drop) as a lighter trainer than the Torin.

I also train in Altras, not sure which model, they are old and don't look like running shoes. When there were races I raced in Next %.
I use to race and train in zero drop racing flats but found the Altras just as fast and the Nike Next % much faster.
Recently I got a pair of Nike Zoom Fly 3s because I thought it would make sense to training is something very similar to what I race in, but the Zoom Fly is much slower than the Altras.
Just because you have a Carbon Plate in the shoe doesn't make it fast. The Next % foam will make you faster.

45 in Torin 4 Plush, 45 in Escalante Racer, 45.5 in Vaporfly Next%

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Darren
https://www.strava.com/athletes/12385497

To update the thread, still no new shoes. Did manage to apply the tips above and do some speed worm over a 3 month period. My 10k dropped from 53 min down to 48 min significant improvement even before adding the new shoes to it. That said been eyeing the endorphin pro as it seems to ne more table and durable than nikes. Once i get th im the next 2 month or so will update but right now recovering from sprained ankle (not running related... jumping to skip a step to go lock my front door...)