This is a way better question for the letsrun forum. There is endless discussion about college programs there.

D1 running has changed tremendously since I was a runner in college at a D1 school (mid 90s). Depending on your state of residence, I would look at the D1 schools in your state first. Some of the smaller D1 schools are getting better runners because the big schools spend most of their budget on football and CC has been ignored or even getting cancelled with corona (though, this is happening at smaller schools as well). Running in school was the best decision I ever made and I still keep in touch with friends I made 20+ years ago. Also, have your kid look at Vanderbilt. ;)

Oh wow - had no idea. Very cool! I grew up in Midland and had some classmates who played football there in the late 90’s. Funny enough, one is now a triathlete.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Personally, I think the advice on this thread is infinitely more helpful than anything letsrun could provide. That place is 99% sarcasm, off-topic, and trolling. The other 1% is reserved for talking about Galen Rupp, NOP, carbon shoes, etc.

I think it's easy to point to successful programs like Arkansas, NAU, BYU, Oregon, etc. and say check them out. I think the harder thing is figuring out why they are successful and if your son would reach his potential at programs of that caliber. The best program for him may not be one of those top tier programs. It may not even be D1 (Adams State, GVSU, etc.).

Ivies are not even close to full freight unless you're rich.

My son was a D1 track All-American for Princeton. He never thought about the Ivies until they came recruiting him. The pre-enrollment financial aid calculator and their supposed no-debt policy is a bit of a bait and switch, but we got a real good deal. Much better financially than any track athletic scholarships, which are usually broken up so a lot of guys get just a little bit. My daughters get free tuition at a different private college and the loans my son was left with are a fraction of what the girls will have just from room and board.

Academics, coaches, and fit are a bigger deal than getting into the best track/xc program you can get into. There are some D3 schools that have a great athletic culture and the opportunity to maximize your talent. Like the Ivies, many of these schools will prioritize academics with full coach support if there's a conflict or if you need to pull back for a season.

Forget Letsrun. There are some gems of good, informed advice on such threads there, but you have to filter through a load of turds to find them. And if you know enough to discern the gems from the turds you probably don't need the advice.

I went to school at U Maine at Orono, and can recommend the state of Maine as a gorgeous place to run. The coach is very knowledgeable (ex-olympic-trials-cuts in the 800 himself).

I work at Oklahoma State University, which has a seriously good XC team. We just invested $10 million in a new XC course and it's gorgeous. You can find a drone-made video tour of the course on the XC website. PM me if your family wants to know more - or comes out to visit! I'm in the math department.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

I think something like 83% of Harvard students get some form of financial aid (most IVYs are probably similar), so yes very few pay “list price.” Admissions are need-blind, so if you want to go badly enough they will make it possible. For my family that was a second mortgage.

Being an athlete doesn’t get you a lower cost than not being one.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Seniors tend to know it all so let him decide with a lot of influencing/guidance but not decision maker from you as a parent. If things don't work out at the school chosen, look out for a lot of near-term and possible long-term blame to come your way for years.

At D1 schools, the best runners get over-utilized in track races from individual events to relays. The attention, the race caliber, the excitement, and whatnot are all fun and energizing initially but over a season or more, it's a burden physically from the races, speed, and training. And emotionally from the runners not wanting to let their relay team members down or from not letting the whole team down in not scoring the expected points. It's compounded too if there are a lot of talented runners vying for a limited number of spots. The workouts become races to make the meet and travel team, which sets up the less developed/stronger athletes for being tired come race day and delivery a disappointing race performance. Seems like everyone on the team are always peaking or staying at peak to make the squad, be named to the meet, to score points, to achieve qualifying standards, etc.

College coaches care for their athletes but they want to make the best team showing at meets. The coaches are motivated to keep their job, become a coach at a bigger more prestigious school, or be named as a national coach. And at most D1 programs, there is an assistant coach and/or graduate student working with the long distance groups (sprinters/hurdlers, jumps, shot/disc, etc....). Often the head coach spends minimal time with people below the top or just above the bottom performers. If the head coach deals with people at the bottom, it's mostly for culling purpose. And they need to deal with any troublemakers on a team. It's never pleasant for any parties involved in the latter two groups.

Focus on a school more geared to long distance programs and with a sizeable quantity of long distance runners who are still in the program as juniors and seniors. Lack of upper class level students is a red flag. Look for diversity too that should be present at larger, D1 schools. Look at roosters and talk with team members/staff to get these answers. Talk with people who provide guidance about classes, educational programs, tutoring, etc for the cross country and track members. Ask about graduation numbers for walk-ons and scholarship athletes.

Other things, what's the resiliency of your son? At big schools, with big programs, competing in big meets, all athletes are faced with exceptional opportunities to perform and succeed big time, or fail big time. Both will happen, from PR's to blowouts and rebounds. Often multiple times if the students and/or athletes are resilient. How is he in setting PRs only to finish mid-pack but staying in the game to get stronger, run quicker, build confidence, etc? Patience, motivation, and determination not to give up are Level 100 prerequisites for D1 athletes to succeed. Also, is he flexible in porting these over to his education and emotional development too? All traits handy at any school, in a career, and reaching life's goals.

Is he an extrovert or introvert? Big score introverts often get buried in classrooms and social life at bigger D1 schools.

Note the best of the racers move beyond college line up with a different set of coaches when competing on the world stage. Often runners who race and race, to exhaustion or injury in college, stop running after eligibility is used up. Ironically, they quit the thing they loved the most. However, many runners in the middle pack of track, or other D1 sports, are the long-term triathletes competing into their 20s and decades beyond.

COVID may impact his decision too. At a minimum, the pandemic will influence everyone's future decisions. D1 programs will be rolled backed across the board. Meets will be reduced once resumed. Clubs will probably play a bigger role at schools going forward as programs cease or get cut back. Bigger schools will provide more club opportunities than smaller schools.

Finally, what does your son think his life should look like if he projected looking back over it when he is in his 60s-70s-and beyond? Stepping out into the future, may help him (and you) think through to the best decisions to consider in 2021. Evaluate the possible decisions through some filters he created in his research and initial schools that appear on his potential list. Maybe track down a few runners who graduated from schools on his list in the past decade and ask them what they would decide "if they had to do it all over again." That may potentially be the best way for you to influence your son so he makes the best educated decision for himself.

https://www.palmtreesahead.com/
https://www.palmtreesahead.com/coaching-style

https://gvsulakers.com/...marathon-trials.aspx

Wow - I had no idea! Very impressive.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

I ran D1 track and field (mid distance) and it was an amazing experience. I am still friends/brothers with every person that was on my team. I can only hope my kids can enjoy being a student athlete. With that being said, your kid needs to focus on the student part first, then the athlete part. Yeah, sports can open up doors, but a top notch school will open up more. If my kid got a full ride to Penn State for sports, but also have the opportunity to be a walk on at Princeton and I have to pay full tuition... They are going to Princeton. It will benefit them more in the long run.

I might add that I was also a D1 track athlete 40 years ago. Not all D1 programs are created equal. I was a jumper and the only coach for the team was a distance guy and we had All-Americans in distance and XC. We jumpers were completely on our own and did whatever we came up with.

I didn't care that much. Track was not a high priority. It was something to do in the afternoons and I mostly enjoyed the meets for the travel and the food.

I was a walk-on but won our conference meet my freshman year and got some scholarship money my sophomore year, so I guess I could say I was a scholarship athlete, although it didn't pay a big portion of my bill. At all schools, there is orders of magnitude more money in academic scholarships than athletic. Chasing athletic scholarships is more about pride than money unless you're a very top football or basketball star.

I would note that it has changed considerably. Many scholarships now (at least where I went) pay full tuition and you may get a monthly stipend that pays $200, $300, $400, etc. a month. And that was at Weber State. Not a huge powerhouse by any means. Obviously the football and basketball programs tended to get more scholarship money and higher stipends, but it's not unusual on the track and XC side of things to get some stipend money in addition to your full scholarship. Again, every place is different and every persons situation is different. But I sense that with COVID everything may be changing.

And also, every collegiate coach and director in this sport is going to tell you academics come first. Is it true? Maybe. They know it's what parents want to hear and athletes will tell their parents that too. The reality is that when you're at a competitive program, you're travelling almost every other weekend all across the country. You're practicing twice a day (morning double run, afternoon practice +weights) and most mornings on the weekends you're not traveling are spent doing long runs and team activities. There's time to work on school obviously, but in reality you're an athlete first and a student second in the eyes of your coach and director. That is, unless you ever get into academic eligibility trouble. I'm not sure how ivy league works so that may be entirely different, but that's what it was like in my experience and from other friends I had at different programs.

This all day long. The U.S. academic system is about getting credentialed (for better or worse). The school you attend largely dictates opportunities available post graduation. Granted, many people succeed all the time that attended no school or schools nobody has heard of outside their local region. My advice would be to triangulate the schools with best academics & running program, but focus on academics first. If your kid can get into MIT but has the chance to run at "valley something"...MIT is a no brainer.

Lot's of good information, my daughter is a senior in college on full scholarship and was heavily recruited for D1 and had her pick of schools. Here is my thoughts of what to consider in the process:

1) The coach - which I learned is a key factor to consider, is it someone who is going to run them into the ground and are they actually involved with the athletes or just a figure head and leave everything up to the assistants. And, look closely at the assistants who actually run the program and their knowledge and background.

2) Which Discipline and focus - if XC look who has a strong XC program, middle distance, etc,. This will weigh in your decision. Big 12, SEC...look at the division and where most meets are held and who the competition is as well as how much travel is involved.

3) Facilities - do they have a XC course or do they go elsewhere, do they have a dedicated outdoor track, or an indoor track, do they share facilities or go somewhere else.

4) Location - weather, the town, the school itself, because keep in mind, it's also about the experience.

I will agree with Arkansas as a pick, great indoor facility and outdoor as well as coaching staff. They are an SEC school but host most of the indoor meets for the Midwest. Someone mentioned OSU, they have a great XC track, the team gets to eat at the training table with the football team, but no where near the facilities of Arkansas. OSU is a stronger XC school than Arkansas but Arkansas' focus is more towards track and field vs XC. Iowa is cold as crap, stood outside in 10 below weather with snow for one meet. So that's another consideration, the weather.

4) Education - after all is said and done, walking away with a degree is what matters most.

Enjoy the visits and really talk to the host, usually someone on the team. And don't get roped into a school because some outlier went there and was successful. There are some strong, talented runners who have been successful despite the coaching and facilities and ran on pure talent alone which could bring notoriety to a program that isn't deserving of it.

NAU is good.

Arkansas is better (and the women's team is outstanding too)

The rest are competing for second place

Again not to play devils advocate here, but I dont really know that 15:18 even as fast as that is, is that top talent recruitable (even for a part time runner) for the schools mentioned. That's an good caveat to have, but if you think your going to get those coaches and programs to offer you money, you better be in the 14's for sure I would think; easily that on the track as a 5k track vs xc is always going to be and need to be faster.

Hell I've worked w/ some HS athletes who broke 15 on xc course, sub 4:30 miler, sub 9:30 2 miler and *only* got money to mid level ACC school(s).

15:18 is fast but it aint elite top xc school level. So be wary when you get on the recruiting trail imo if you think that is the schools you should be going towards.

Again an athlete like the OP's son who's "raw" to running (showcases just how talented of an athlete he is) can be viewed as a good thing. But at the end of the day to get recruited to those previous schools mentioned, you better show real commitment and a sub 15 5k imo. OR be some freak 800m time that can truly justify giving money and "building" him to what they want.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Many scholarships now (at least where I went) pay full tuition and you may get a monthly stipend that pays $200, $300, $400, etc. a month. And that was at Weber State. Not a huge powerhouse by any means. Obviously the football and basketball programs tended to get more scholarship money and higher stipends, but it's not unusual on the track and XC side of things to get some stipend money in addition to your full scholarship. Again, every place is different and every persons situation is different. But I sense that with COVID everything may be changing.

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The whole covid mess has really messed with collegiate programs. It's tough because all the olympic sports are pretty much at the mercy of the big boy football and bball programs on campus to fund them. But then you hear X coach is getting fired and is going to be paid $xx million in next 30 days to NOT coach your team.


The big running joke I've seen on social media the last 48 hours is "when I grow up I want to be an fired SEC football coach"........




The stipend money for scholarship athletes is *suppose* to be sent to every scholarship student athlete. I coached a girl that was on scholarship at a D1 power 5 school and she said every month she would get her "brown envelope" of money...but what was worse is the ones that were walk-ons wouldn't get that stipend envelope and they would all basically be very similiar ability (and pretty much many best friends).


Sometimes it matters how big or small the recruiting class is for scholarships.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

• Typical Men's D1 Track and Field programs have 12.6 scholarships, typically shared with Cross Country. But that is divided across 4 classes (freshmen, sophomore, etc), so on average 3.15 scholarships for each incoming class. Almost nobody is on or near a full ride (take the # of athletes in a track and field program + Cross Country and divide by 12.6).
• D1 Soccer programs have 9.9 scholarships. My son's buddy was one of the highest recruited players 2 years ago, he got a 75% scholarship to a top program (he now plays pro). Typical soccer program have ~ 28 players 26/11 = 35% on average, with a few stars taking the majority and most others < 20%. There are minimal Soccer walk-ons at the D1 level.
• Many years ago I swam at the D1 level (very mediocre), MAC conference, we had 4 scholarships for men's swimming (including divers) with a few Olympic Time Trial qualifiers on team. Needless to say while I did get some type of scholarship every quarter it would have been much more financially efficient to work for minimum wage based on the hours we put in (that said I wouldn't change a thing). Most mid sized universities no longer have men's swimming.
• I have seen many high school soccer players select a university based on a scholarship offer and quit / transfer within the first year.
• To many of the points above while I highly recommend college athletics it would be the 5th-6th factor on my list in selecting a university (unless said athlete plays football (D1 85 scholarships per team), basketball or is a current absolute star).

I would add food to the list of things to compare schools by. That package can be a huge benefit even if tuition is not covered. I work in D1 athletics and every single kid on our teams (whether recruited or walk-on) gets the same base meal plan that ends up providing 3 meals/day. They also get high-quality workout snacks/supplements. That's easily $750-1000/month a parent doesn't have to spend.
Perhaps most importantly, I would also look at how a school prioritizes nutrition to see how much they actually value athlete health.

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http://www.extramilenutrition.com

This sentiment sounds good in theory and it might apply for running- where one can self-coach.
Or football (where there are 10 million scholarships)

But for most college sports -

Either you want to play college sports or you don't!!

That has to be the first choice.

The only ways that sports can be a 5th or 6th level consideration are:
1) if the parents have unlimited assets
2) the child is already on the national team
3) If you consider intramural activities as "college sports"

To illustrate this:
My son was one of the top 5 soccer recruits from a medium size state last year. (That is probably similar to running a low 15 minute 5k). He had a 3.6 GPA. 1260 SAT.

Limiting factors:
1) No in-state options for D1 or 2 Men's soccer in our state
2) SAT score were below IVY league minimums
3) 70% of Men's soccer scholarships go to ex-pros from Europe, Latin America, Africa, Asia, etc.
4) Top D1 colleges also recruit from lower D1 and top D2.
5) Thus the top 50 D1 colleges have no interest and/or no money.
6) Most of the 50-200- D1 colleges will spend all of their money on 2 or three foreign players.
7) Some private and out of state public colleges will offer small athletic scholarships but no academic scholarships.
They will still cost NET - $45,000/yr.
7) Others will offer academic aide but no Athletic.
Still cost- $45,000/yr

In the end the affordable options were:
1) weird religious institutions
2) a military academy
3) low prestige, private colleges, in rust belt areas, still costing more than $ 20,000 net per year.
4) several low prestige public universities, in rust belt locations- AFFORDABLE
(This is what he chose)
5) Quit soccer and go to college in-state
6) Community college or NAIA