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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [Staer] [ In reply to ]
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Staer wrote:
This has always been the case since the 70.3 series was started.

Craig Alexander won his first world title coming off a short course focus.

Terrenzo Bozzone won after being denied an Olympic birth.

Andy Potts won upon switching from sc. Then Michael Raelert popped in during a short course career and won twice.

There’s been a couple never-really-done-short-course wins and the podium always features them, like Kienle, Gambles, Symonds, Lieto and so on.

Further down the list, guys like Brent McMahon jumped into 70.3 worlds mid ITU career and got top 5s and similar pointy end results.

Don't forget that Mark Allen won Kona after dominating all distances from 1.5/40/10 to Nice (4/120/30)....or we could say that after 6 years of near misses in Kona, he spent 1989 on a 22 race winning streak (or something that long) at short to medium distances and then went back to long and won Kona. I am not sure which was to categorize Mark Allen. Dave Scott definitiely Long course only. Mark, Tinley, Molina, all distance guys.
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [Staer] [ In reply to ]
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Staer wrote:
This has always been the case since the 70.3 series was started.

Craig Alexander won his first world title coming off a short course focus.

Terrenzo Bozzone won after being denied an Olympic birth.

Andy Potts won upon switching from sc. Then Michael Raelert popped in during a short course career and won twice.

There’s been a couple never-really-done-short-course wins and the podium always features them, like Kienle, Gambles, Symonds, Lieto and so on.

Further down the list, guys like Brent McMahon jumped into 70.3 worlds mid ITU career and got top 5s and similar pointy end results.

Yip totally agree, however I think we are now seeing legit top 5 ITU guys move up and that has made it even harder for the exclusively LC athletes. I think without a 12m rule it's really tough. I'm not sure things are gonna change much at St George and Taupo over the next few years. Maybe the odd podium for a strong bike/run athlete like Lionel, Hanson or Kienle.
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone have links to the videos of the races?

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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BigBoyND wrote:
CementBottle wrote:

Lionel had the third fastest bike split 26 seconds behind Ditlev and 7 seconds behind Long. His run was quite reasonable as well, sub 1 hour. He was less than 1 minute from Iden. I think Hanson had the fastest run split.


Not enough credit to Lionel, imo.

I can imagine the barrage of comments putting him down if he had finished outside of top 10. But it's mostly crickets after that incredible performance.

He was 27 seconds behind the fastest bike split (who blew up) and still managed the 4th fastest run split. Who here would have expected Lionel to run himself into 4th through this field? Expectations were that he would drop from whatever position he biked himself into.

Fastest bike/run split of the day. Faster than Iden, Gomez, Hanson, and everyone else, including Louis. Even if you subtract 2 minutes from his time and consider that he got a 2 minute break...


'Not enough credit to Lionel' what was you expecting on here? Maybe outside his fanclub on here no one cares about him that much?

He was beaten by three other athletes, two of which most would not have put infront of LS before the race, I'd say they were the two not getting enough love around here!

Absolutely no one is talking about Goodwin (who came from no where to podium) if he was an uber biker the dude would have about three posts up on him by now.
Last edited by: Jackets: Dec 8, 20 1:40
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [plant_based] [ In reply to ]
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plant_based wrote:
Anyone have links to the videos of the races?


n/m found it - same link as before

https://protriathletes.org/watch-pto-2020-championship-live/

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
Some people say the fastest ITU guys will always be the fastest long course guys as well. That is simply not always the case.


Given the luxury of looking back at this, my feeling is the bike course as simple as it was, was more of a factor than people realize. Same gear. Same big power output. Same RPM. Same position. No coasting. No letting off. For 80km! How many were really ready for that?


The first time I had ever thought about this was when my wife was prepping to race IMFL for the first time years ago ( 180 km bike almost completely flat). A key ingredient of the training - long rides on the trainer - in the same position pushing a big gear and big power! She did reasonably well that year - 7th in the Pro Women's race, but I remember standing at T2, and watching so many people get off their bikes, and be completely crippled. They needed to be literally helped off the bike, and then could barely even walk!!

As crazy as Lionel's One Hour Heroics seemed - it may have actually been the best preparation that anyone could have done - as unorthodox as it may have been seen at the time! This obviously set him up well for the bike, but for the run as well. He ran well and was hanging in there with the super-runners, and not far off the pace! I have not done a deep dive into the splits, but LS should gave had the best bike/run splits! Or perhaps Matt Hanson.

every coach and athlete that took the time to look at the 2019 daytona race in order to prepare for this race .
so you would think everybody that cares a bit .
but then even ditlev who did the race last year cramped early on the run. so just knowing what was going to happen maybe not good enough ... likewise sanders with his pre pre and having done the race looked way worse than Long getting of the bike.* would be interesting to know if david thinks he stayed within his power limit or went a bit over .
or its now 2 times Ab walking after a flat fast bike like samorin.
at the end i think its more horses for courses federer always struggeling in paris nadal struggling at wimbledon.
or it says a lot about patience . ditlev could have paced bike better , if sanders cycled a min slower he likley likely would run faster at the start of run , and alister did not need to lean from the start as everybody knew he would do.

all intersting questions .
i still cant wrap my head around how well schoeman did on the bike,he surely was the lightest guy in the male field.and relativly little tt bike expericnce.
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [pk] [ In reply to ]
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pk wrote:
Fleck wrote:
Some people say the fastest ITU guys will always be the fastest long course guys as well. That is simply not always the case.


Given the luxury of looking back at this, my feeling is the bike course as simple as it was, was more of a factor than people realize. Same gear. Same big power output. Same RPM. Same position. No coasting. No letting off. For 80km! How many were really ready for that?


The first time I had ever thought about this was when my wife was prepping to race IMFL for the first time years ago ( 180 km bike almost completely flat). A key ingredient of the training - long rides on the trainer - in the same position pushing a big gear and big power! She did reasonably well that year - 7th in the Pro Women's race, but I remember standing at T2, and watching so many people get off their bikes, and be completely crippled. They needed to be literally helped off the bike, and then could barely even walk!!

As crazy as Lionel's One Hour Heroics seemed - it may have actually been the best preparation that anyone could have done - as unorthodox as it may have been seen at the time! This obviously set him up well for the bike, but for the run as well. He ran well and was hanging in there with the super-runners, and not far off the pace! I have not done a deep dive into the splits, but LS should gave had the best bike/run splits! Or perhaps Matt Hanson.

every coach and athlete that took the time to look at the 2019 daytona race in order to prepare for this race .
so you would think everybody that cares a bit .
but then even ditlev who did the race last year cramped early on the run. so just knowing what was going to happen maybe not good enough ... likewise sanders with his pre pre and having done the race looked way worse than Long getting of the bike.* would be interesting to know if david thinks he stayed within his power limit or went a bit over .
or its now 2 times Ab walking after a flat fast bike like samorin.
at the end i think its more horses for courses federer always struggeling in paris nadal struggling at wimbledon.
or it says a lot about patience . ditlev could have paced bike better , if sanders cycled a min slower he likley likely would run faster at the start of run , and alister did not need to lean from the start as everybody knew he would do.

all intersting questions .
i still cant wrap my head around how well schoeman did on the bike,he surely was the lightest guy in the male field.and relativly little tt bike expericnce.

I think with AB he made the same mistake that he did in Samorin, a pathological desire to reach T2 in the lead. I think ego is a big factor with Alistair - his retired former coach Malcolm Brown has said this many times, having watched and attended many of his coaching seminars.

Now this ego has got him to 2 Olympic titles and probably fuelled him to a dominance that we may not see in ITU on the Mens side for some time.

But in LC course racing I think it could be destructive. I think the dynamics of racing are so different and reward patience rather than reactionary decisions. There was a point in the bike where AB should have just settled in and let others go and rode to his power. But I bet you in that last 20km when Ditlev, RVB and Appo were driving it on he overbiked. If he just sat back with Schoeman and Luis 1 min back I'm pretty sure he'd have ran to the front. Probably not good enough to beat Iden but enough to get 2nd.
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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BigBoyND wrote:
Fastest bike/run split of the day. Faster than Iden, Gomez, Hanson, and everyone else, including Louis. Even if you subtract 2 minutes from his time and consider that he got a 2 minute break...

He was 7 sec behind Goodwin and 19 sec behind Matt Russell. If he swam 20 sec faster, he could have placed 2nd.
His run and bike training during this pandemic definitely paid off though.
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Jackets wrote:
BigBoyND wrote:
CementBottle wrote:

Lionel had the third fastest bike split 26 seconds behind Ditlev and 7 seconds behind Long. His run was quite reasonable as well, sub 1 hour. He was less than 1 minute from Iden. I think Hanson had the fastest run split.


Not enough credit to Lionel, imo.

I can imagine the barrage of comments putting him down if he had finished outside of top 10. But it's mostly crickets after that incredible performance.

He was 27 seconds behind the fastest bike split (who blew up) and still managed the 4th fastest run split. Who here would have expected Lionel to run himself into 4th through this field? Expectations were that he would drop from whatever position he biked himself into.

Fastest bike/run split of the day. Faster than Iden, Gomez, Hanson, and everyone else, including Louis. Even if you subtract 2 minutes from his time and consider that he got a 2 minute break...


'Not enough credit to Lionel' what was you expecting on here? Maybe outside his fanclub on here no one cares about him that much?

He was beaten by three other athletes, two of which most would not have put infront of LS before the race, I'd say they were the two not getting enough love around here!

Absolutely no one is talking about Goodwin (who came from no where to podium) if he was an uber biker the dude would have about three posts up on him by now.

I think he's trying to point out that given how far back Lionel was in the swim, his performance was pretty exceptional. As well, given all the Lionel haters on here, and the predictions he wouldn't even get close to cracking top 10, the gutsy performance he put out to come 4th, 7 seconds behind third is commendable.

Does not mean Goodwin or Hanson did not also have good performances and should not take anything away from their performances.
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [CementBottle] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed, was nice to see Lionel do well after that swim.

Guy looked hurt though, wow. Grit for sure.
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Jackets wrote:

'Not enough credit to Lionel' what was you expecting on here? Maybe outside his fanclub on here no one cares about him that much?

He was beaten by three other athletes, two of which most would not have put infront of LS before the race, I'd say they were the two not getting enough love around here!

Absolutely no one is talking about Goodwin (who came from no where to podium) if he was an uber biker the dude would have about three posts up on him by now.


Well, where do I start?

Lionel has 100k+ followers on YT, alone. How many active members does ST have in the triathlon forum? His following seems to be broader than his ST fanclub, whatever that term means. Given the trash talk that happens here whenever he comes up, his haterclub might be just as large. Either way, he gets a lot of attention which is why I was surprised about the silence on his race and not surprised about silence on Goodwin, for example.

As CementBottle said, I am not discounting Goodwin. He had an incredible race. So did Iden, Hanson, etc. Major kudos to them all.

The fact that others had commendable performances and blowups doesn't mean beating every other LC and SC athlete's bike/run split is any less impressive. How many people would've bet on that happening? Probably none, or close to it.

Yes he was beaten by three other athletes. But he got to 4th places from 50th. This is an "uberbiker" who ran into 4th from 12th coming off the bike. If that doesn't impress given the quality of this field, I can't help you and can only assume you have some kind of personal problem with him.
Last edited by: BigBoyND: Dec 8, 20 20:17
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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BigBoyND wrote:
Jackets wrote:

'Not enough credit to Lionel' what was you expecting on here? Maybe outside his fanclub on here no one cares about him that much?

He was beaten by three other athletes, two of which most would not have put infront of LS before the race, I'd say they were the two not getting enough love around here!

Absolutely no one is talking about Goodwin (who came from no where to podium) if he was an uber biker the dude would have about three posts up on him by now.


Well, where do I start?

Lionel has 100k+ followers on YT, alone. How many active members does ST have in the triathlon forum? His following seems to be broader than his ST fanclub, whatever that term means. Given the trash talk that happens here whenever he comes up, his haterclub might be just as large. Either way, he gets a lot of attention which is why I was surprised about the silence on his race and not surprised about silence on Goodwin, for example.

As CementBottle said, I am not discounting Goodwin. He had an incredible race. So did Iden, Hanson, etc. Major kudos to them all.

The fact that others had commendable performances and blowups doesn't mean beating every other LC and SC athlete's bike/swim split is any less impressive. How many people would've bet on that happening? Probably none, or close to it.

Yes he was beaten by three other athletes. But he got to 4th places from 50th. This is an "uberbiker" who ran into 4th from 12th coming off the bike. If that doesn't impress given the quality of this field, I can't help you and can only assume you have some kind of personal problem with him.

THIS IS BRILLIANT. If we compare Lionel with every other LC athlete not named Jan Frodeno...he's possibly the best. Definitely in the discussion. Thank you for this...

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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dfru wrote:
BigBoyND wrote:
Jackets wrote:

'Not enough credit to Lionel' what was you expecting on here? Maybe outside his fanclub on here no one cares about him that much?

He was beaten by three other athletes, two of which most would not have put infront of LS before the race, I'd say they were the two not getting enough love around here!

Absolutely no one is talking about Goodwin (who came from no where to podium) if he was an uber biker the dude would have about three posts up on him by now.


Well, where do I start?

Lionel has 100k+ followers on YT, alone. How many active members does ST have in the triathlon forum? His following seems to be broader than his ST fanclub, whatever that term means. Given the trash talk that happens here whenever he comes up, his haterclub might be just as large. Either way, he gets a lot of attention which is why I was surprised about the silence on his race and not surprised about silence on Goodwin, for example.

As CementBottle said, I am not discounting Goodwin. He had an incredible race. So did Iden, Hanson, etc. Major kudos to them all.

The fact that others had commendable performances and blowups doesn't mean beating every other LC and SC athlete's bike/swim split is any less impressive. How many people would've bet on that happening? Probably none, or close to it.

Yes he was beaten by three other athletes. But he got to 4th places from 50th. This is an "uberbiker" who ran into 4th from 12th coming off the bike. If that doesn't impress given the quality of this field, I can't help you and can only assume you have some kind of personal problem with him.


THIS IS BRILLIANT. If we compare Lionel with every other LC athlete not named Jan Frodeno...he's possibly the best. Definitely in the discussion. Thank you for this...

He can't swim and he's never won a race. He's a world class YouTuber, cyclist, sufferer, personality. He holds the Canadian hour record while simultaneously holding enough run training to set a 5k PB.

The sport is changing. It's an "ITU" sport now, and talent is going where the money is, and when those people lose a step at the world class level they go to Ironman. Again, the sport is changing. You have to be an all-rounder to win. No more Normann Stadlers or Craig Alexanders.

Lionel came to IM 10 years too late sadly.

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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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BigBoyND wrote:
CementBottle wrote:

Lionel had the third fastest bike split 26 seconds behind Ditlev and 7 seconds behind Long. His run was quite reasonable as well, sub 1 hour. He was less than 1 minute from Iden. I think Hanson had the fastest run split.


Not enough credit to Lionel, imo.

I can imagine the barrage of comments putting him down if he had finished outside of top 10. But it's mostly crickets after that incredible performance.

He was 27 seconds behind the fastest bike split (who blew up) and still managed the 4th fastest run split. Who here would have expected Lionel to run himself into 4th through this field? Expectations were that he would drop from whatever position he biked himself into.


What are you talking about? I think just about everyone expected him to have a strong bike/run
after his typical slow Swim. His race/placing went off about exactly as most expected, slightly worse finish than last year with a deeper field.
Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Dec 9, 20 17:53
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Sure, everyone expected a fast bike/run, but the fastest? And finish 4th?

I was rooting for him but wasn't expecting either of those things. I was expecting maybe top 10 and losing a few spots in the run after a strong bike.

Maybe I'm the only one and everyone else knew he could out bike/run the whole field
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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BigBoyND wrote:
Sure, everyone expected a fast bike/run, but the fastest? And finish 4th?

I was rooting for him but wasn't expecting either of those things. I was expecting maybe top 10 and losing a few spots in the run after a strong bike.

Maybe I'm the only one and everyone else knew he could out bike/run the whole field


After his recent bike and run performances, I expected a very fast (ie top 3) or fastest B/R, just not the fastest S/B/R. Maybe I’m the outlier here in my thinking. Who knows!
Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Dec 9, 20 19:06
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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No, his parents aren't Scottish :-)
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [MrPG] [ In reply to ]
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MrPG wrote:
No, his parents aren't Scottish :-)

Ha ha I always thought maybe he had Scottish parents as he received funding up here. I know a few guys who trained with him up at Stirling. In fact I think raced against him at Nationals. Thought he'd be a really solid 70.3 Pro maybe top 10. But that bike split at Daytona has changed my mind. He's a pretty small guy so will do well when it gets hilly. Just needs to work on his swim.
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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He had a solid swim last year at Nice where he finished 12th and at one point was running in 6th. Swimming this year has been tricky as you can imagine. The last four weeks into Daytona he didn't even have a full sized pool to use as we were in lockdown. So when normality returns he'll be working on that.
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [MrPG] [ In reply to ]
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MrPG wrote:
He had a solid swim last year at Nice where he finished 12th and at one point was running in 6th. Swimming this year has been tricky as you can imagine. The last four weeks into Daytona he didn't even have a full sized pool to use as we were in lockdown. So when normality returns he'll be working on that.


Well, it will be seen already.
Last edited by: WandaHamilton: Dec 11, 20 1:01
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Re: Challenge Daytona Race Day Banter [MrPG] [ In reply to ]
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MrPG wrote:
He had a solid swim last year at Nice where he finished 12th and at one point was running in 6th. Swimming this year has been tricky as you can imagine. The last four weeks into Daytona he didn't even have a full sized pool to use as we were in lockdown. So when normality returns he'll be working on that.

Ha ha I just twigged who you are. Recognized the name from TriTalk.

So where is George based these days? It's been a few years since I've seen him race up here. I assume he has worked alot on his position over the last few years as looked smooth as hell on Sunday.
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