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Re: Zwift suspends 2 riders for data manipulation [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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I posted a pretty long assessment as a comment on DCRainmaker's post on this story (not duplicated here). It wasn't so much critical of the athlete, but tried to do two things: 1) make an educated guess about the possible event sequnence and 2) point out that the info in the Zwift report goes a long way to enabling the success of future, similar efforts (if additional checks are not in place). I concluded that she was unlikely to have manipulated her power reported during the race, was mostly unaware of the FIT file details and was so pleased to have someone 'fix' her file and potentially reverse the DQ that she didn't ask (the right) questions / just trusted the file editor. I agree that a prolonged tar-and-feathers by internet is unwarranted here. BUT, there are things to be learned for the entire community - positive and negative - that should be emphasized, and doing that in the absence of the context is a challenge.
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Re: Zwift suspends 2 riders for data manipulation [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:

This also doesn't address a more immediate issue, which is that static calibration on both the PM and the trainer could be gamed. Comparable to the 50% HCT rule, which wasn't a full crack down on EPO and blood doping, quite a few of the rules listed above are of tangential relevance at best.

Much easier to require everyone to purchase certified weight plates (hey, Zwift could even make a buck here by having ZADA engraved into the plates), one 10 kg, one 20 kg. Make people do a video of them taking the mass of the plates on the scale they plan on using, then in the same video, have them do static calibration of the PM they plan on using. Have them submit the excel file with the various offset numbers recorded, and have them use that slope. That's what guarantees the accuracy of the PM. Now that the PM has been standardized (and I believe the slope is reported in the *.fit files), if the recording from the trainer doesn't match up, then there's an issue. Make people do this 3x a year. An added side benefit is that this also guarantees the accuracy of the scale used.

Otherwise, without addressing the more fundamental issue of people adjusting slope on the PM to match the wacky numbers from the trainer, it's all smoke and mirrors anyway. Yeah, some powermeters don't allow people to enter slopes. Well, if ZADA really want integrity of competition to be taken seriously, it should require that either the PM or the trainer to have slopes that can be calibrated (and require people to use data from that device as the primary feed when doing Zwift races).

As @ridenfish39 mentioned above, there are numerous A-grade Zwift racers who can't do what they do indoors when competing outside. I posted rants about this elsewhere, but someone who's a no name at GMSR (a climb-heavy amateur stage race) could apparently do 6.2 w/kg for 20 minutes on Zwift. Rather ludicrous, when our resident climber, who actually won the mountain top finish stage at GMSR and is an actual pro, has a 6.0 w/kg 20-min PB on Zwift, all the while being ~10 kg lighter.

Someone else (a former competitor of mine) who could apparently do 5.0 w/kg (325 W) for 20 minutes on Zwift either has a 0.29 m^2 CdA on the TT bike or uses a faulty PM/trainer when on Zwift.

Sure, go after the easy-picking targets such as Ms. Duncombe and Ms. Berger above, but one could easily do all that ZADA asks and still adulterate the integrity of competition, or one could skip at least step E mentioned above without compromising integrity of competition when people are forced to use PM/trainers with the correct slope.

Excellent post, and I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two as well. PMed
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Re: Zwift suspends 2 riders for data manipulation [ridenfish39] [ In reply to ]
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The calibration of the slope can be manipulated, the crank arm length can be manipulated, the calibrated weights can be manipulated, there can be a man in the middle, there is at least one high rated swifter serving a 4 years ban in real bicycle racing, ... .

It becomes arbitrarily complicated to prevent cheating in virtual racing, especially as long as it is truly virtual, i.e. people bike at their home having full access to the hardware (and other stuff)). At the end Swift is a video game, ride and have fun, don‘t take it too serious.
Last edited by: BergHugi: Nov 23, 20 12:17
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Re: Zwift suspends 2 riders for data manipulation [BergHugi] [ In reply to ]
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BergHugi wrote:
The calibration of the slope can be manipulated, the crank arm length can be manipulated, the calibrated weights can be manipulated, there can be a man in the middle, there is at least one high rated swifter serving a 4 years ban in real bicycle racing, ... .

It becomes arbitrarily complicated to prevent cheating in virtual racing, especially as long as it is truly virtual, i.e. people bike at their home having full access to the hardware (and other stuff)). At the end Swift is a video game, ride and have fun, don‘t take it too serious.


I agree at the recreational level. But at the more-elite level, the women who are the subject of this thread, it should be fairly easily manageable (outside of the old-school doping practices). With the most drop-dead simple being having high level events done in-person on equipment that the athletes aren't allowed to touch.

(in-person stuff being post-COVID, of course)
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Re: Zwift suspends 2 riders for data manipulation [BergHugi] [ In reply to ]
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BergHugi wrote:
The calibration of the slope can be manipulated, the crank arm length can be manipulated, the calibrated weights can be manipulated, there can be a man in the middle, there is at least one high rated swifter serving a 4 years ban in real bicycle racing, ... .

It becomes arbitrarily complicated to prevent cheating in virtual racing, especially as long as it is truly virtual, i.e. people bike at their home having full access to the hardware (and other stuff)). At the end Swift is a video game, ride and have fun, don‘t take it too serious.

Of course, all that could happen; it's not perfect. Nevertheless, it still represents an improvement over what Zada is currently doing. That's the whole point.

The current system gives a wide berth to the actual cheats and people who take advantage of high power readings.
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Re: Zwift suspends 2 riders for data manipulation [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
Of course, all that could happen; it's not perfect. Nevertheless, it still represents an improvement over what Zada is currently doing. That's the whole point.

The current system gives a wide berth to the actual cheats and people who take advantage of high power readings.

Case in point, for the just-announced indoor Worlds, every athlete has to race on UCI-provided Garmin NEO2T trainers. That should make it much harder to cheat. With the side benefit of adding consistency, since some trainers are known to be very sprinter-friendly. Certainly not impossible to cheat. But harder. Particularly since I'm sure they'll keep track of all the calibration stats on each trainer before they ship them out, and hopefully have ways to detect shenanigans to those parameters, even remotely.

Ideally they'd work with Garmin to completely lock down the firmware to those devices. That would make it really hard to cheat, e.g. you'd have to implement man-in-the-middle software at the driver level that appeared *exactly* like a NEO2T to Zwift. Or something like that.
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Re: Zwift suspends 2 riders for data manipulation [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
echappist wrote:

Of course, all that could happen; it's not perfect. Nevertheless, it still represents an improvement over what Zada is currently doing. That's the whole point.

The current system gives a wide berth to the actual cheats and people who take advantage of high power readings.


Case in point, for the just-announced indoor Worlds, every athlete has to race on UCI-provided Garmin NEO2T trainers. That should make it much harder to cheat. With the side benefit of adding consistency, since some trainers are known to be very sprinter-friendly. Certainly not impossible to cheat. But harder. Particularly since I'm sure they'll keep track of all the calibration stats on each trainer before they ship them out, and hopefully have ways to detect shenanigans to those parameters, even remotely.

Ideally they'd work with Garmin to completely lock down the firmware to those devices. That would make it really hard to cheat, e.g. you'd have to implement man-in-the-middle software at the driver level that appeared *exactly* like a NEO2T to Zwift. Or something like that.

I made this joke elsewhere, but you could give me one of those trainers, and I still can't sprint my way out of a paper bag.

Speaking of which, I nominate either you or someone else as our small group sprinter tomorrow. I certainly can't be trusted to unleash after sucking wheels for the last 3-4 kms. We might end up screwing the pooch à la España at the 2013 Worlds.
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Re: Zwift suspends 2 riders for data manipulation [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
ETA: I just saw the following list of requirements for competition in the Pro-Am races and noticed the following.

ZADA codes wrote:
E) Riders need to submit an outdoor ride file on a gradient of 5% or more from the the last 12 months, with 5s/1m/5m/20min efforts. [Appendix A: Pre-Race information]


It's actually quite difficult for a lot of people to go somewhere with a climb averaging 5% for 20 minutes. I will need to drive 10 hours to Pittsburgh to get to a place with a climb like that


What does it say about me, that I immediately went here in my mind



"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
Last edited by: RandMart: Nov 24, 20 5:46
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Re: Zwift suspends 2 riders for data manipulation [jflan] [ In reply to ]
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jflan wrote:
https://www.velonews.com/...s-banned-from-zwift/

double letters again!

cyclingnews article actually has some specifics on how they did it/were caught
https://www.cyclingnews.com/...-digital-data-issue/

You're welcome

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Zwift suspends 2 riders for data manipulation [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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RandMart wrote:
echappist wrote:
ETA: I just saw the following list of requirements for competition in the Pro-Am races and noticed the following.

ZADA codes wrote:
E) Riders need to submit an outdoor ride file on a gradient of 5% or more from the the last 12 months, with 5s/1m/5m/20min efforts. [Appendix A: Pre-Race information]


It's actually quite difficult for a lot of people to go somewhere with a climb averaging 5% for 20 minutes. I will need to drive 10 hours to Pittsburgh to get to a place with a climb like that


What does it say about me, that I immediately went here in my mind


Those are some truly savage hills. But I'd actually need to go another hour eastward to find a long enough hill
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Re: Zwift suspends 2 riders for data manipulation [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
As @ridenfish39 mentioned above,
there are numerous A-grade Zwift racers who can't do what they do indoors when competing outside. I posted rants about this elsewhere, but someone who's a no name at GMSR (a climb-heavy amateur stage race) could apparently do 6.2 w/kg for 20 minutes on Zwift. Rather ludicrous, when our resident climber, who actually won the mountain top finish stage at GMSR and is an actual pro, has a 6.0 w/kg 20-min PB on Zwift, all the while being ~10 kg lighter.

Someone else (a former competitor of mine) who could apparently do 5.0 w/kg (325 W) for 20 minutes on Zwift either has a 0.29 m^2 CdA on the TT bike or uses a faulty PM/trainer when on Zwift.

Sure, go after the easy-picking targets such as Ms. Duncombe and Ms. Berger above, but one could easily do all that ZADA asks and still adulterate the integrity of competition, or one could skip at least step E mentioned above without compromising integrity of competition when people are forced to use PM/trainers with the correct slope.


...which Berger is one of. She became one of the top eSports racers just when Covid hit us, and suspiciously suffered from "back pains" and a severe bout of excusosis when lockdown was lifted and she was invited to the national U19 squad training.

That being said, "I'm too stupid to cheat" is not the excuse I was expecting:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/i-want-to-clear-my-name-its-devastating-zwift-racer-speaks-out-after-being-banned-for-data-manipulation-476817

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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