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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [atasic] [ In reply to ]
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atasic wrote:
SNIP
Average triathlete does not train with sufficient pool frequency and duration to solely hinge development on easy FR swimming. Variety is key and focus does shift from general to specific, early season to late season.
Yep a bunch of general stuff but cannot use forum for detailed script in seasonal swim training for triathletes.

Finally, Thank You.

This, society goes to shit.
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [atasic] [ In reply to ]
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atasic wrote:
My household has given two colligate swimmers and one senior level coach. The two swimmers are my children, one swimming for and the other committed for 2021 to a top 5 D2 swimming programs. They both come with vastly different specialty, one middle distance/ distance FR the other BR/IM specialist.
Our club generationally puts out 10-12 collegiate swimmers annually, kids committing from top 20 D1 all the way to D3 programs.
The short answer is no. The complete answer is far more delicate. The swimming development hinges on targeted, incremental and periodized use of swimming technique, racing skill and targeted use of various sets. To develop and progress forward is a constant layering of technique development, followed up by fitness/ strength layering, often times concurrently in the same cycle of focus. The more novice the swimmer is, the more focus goes on fundamentals of stroke construction while allowing simple endurance/fitness gains from skill focused sets. All intensities are used from simple endurance effort to below and above race pace, though cycled throughout the season. The lines get blurry with stroke training where BK trains much like FR and is aerobic in nature. Same cannot be said for FL/BR, that are very anaerobic in nature no matter the technique. So, yes easy FL/BR do not exist and are oxymoron.
BR prefers component training and frequent efforts at race pace, similar to FL. Component training refers to back or front of stroke, timing and stroke rate. So BR and FL train with typically shorter distance intervals, short to moderate rest at or near the race pace due to stroke mechanics. Historically, in the past, some coaches have asked of swimmers repeats of 800+ FL or BR, however that methodology today is less prevalent.
FR and BK can be trained with fair amounts of easier to moderate efforts, medium to long intervals any time in season. They will produce aerobic development effects if trained at low intensities in sufficient amounts. Average triathlete does not train with sufficient pool frequency and duration to solely hinge development on easy FR swimming. Variety is key and focus does shift from general to specific, early season to late season.
Yep a bunch of general stuff but cannot use forum for detailed script in seasonal swim training for triathletes.

This was a very helpful post. Thank you.
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [Tri2gohard] [ In reply to ]
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Saw this article on Facebook today about the training of Caeleb Dressell and remembered this discussion. He basically does double the volume of top itu triathletes most weeks.

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/...YtVQfsyJlnnGCLpgunEM
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know exactly what he meant by it, but Troy said Caleb is a 100/200 guy who can outjump most NBA players (which probably isn't actually true, but point made) so he excels at the 50 too.
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [atasic] [ In reply to ]
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atasic wrote:
dunno wrote:
There is plenty of literature, chat and training advice about going slow to go fast with running.

Does they same hold true for swimming though? A lot of training plans seem to be the complete opposite-lots of short sharp intervals. Why is this? Can you approach swimming in the same way-long comfortable low HR sets with a speed day or two during the week?


My household has given two colligate swimmers and one senior level coach. The two swimmers are my children, one swimming for and the other committed for 2021 to a top 5 D2 swimming programs. They both come with vastly different specialty, one middle distance/ distance FR the other BR/IM specialist.
Our club generationally puts out 10-12 collegiate swimmers annually, kids committing from top 20 D1 all the way to D3 programs.
The short answer is no. The complete answer is far more delicate. The swimming development hinges on targeted, incremental and periodized use of swimming technique, racing skill and targeted use of various sets. To develop and progress forward is a constant layering of technique development, followed up by fitness/ strength layering, often times concurrently in the same cycle of focus. The more novice the swimmer is, the more focus goes on fundamentals of stroke construction while allowing simple endurance/fitness gains from skill focused sets. All intensities are used from simple endurance effort to below and above race pace, though cycled throughout the season. The lines get blurry with stroke training where BK trains much like FR and is aerobic in nature. Same cannot be said for FL/BR, that are very anaerobic in nature no matter the technique. So, yes easy FL/BR do not exist and are oxymoron.
BR prefers component training and frequent efforts at race pace, similar to FL. Component training refers to back or front of stroke, timing and stroke rate. So BR and FL train with typically shorter distance intervals, short to moderate rest at or near the race pace due to stroke mechanics. Historically, in the past, some coaches have asked of swimmers repeats of 800+ FL or BR, however that methodology today is less prevalent.
FR and BK can be trained with fair amounts of easier to moderate efforts, medium to long intervals any time in season. They will produce aerobic development effects if trained at low intensities in sufficient amounts. Average triathlete does not train with sufficient pool frequency and duration to solely hinge development on easy FR swimming. Variety is key and focus does shift from general to specific, early season to late season.
Yep a bunch of general stuff but cannot use forum for detailed script in seasonal swim training for triathletes.

Well, your approach is definitely more "nuanced" than the various programs I've swum with, observed, and/or heard about. In my experience (IME), the most common swim training approach is more like "pound the sheet out of them with 15,000-20,000 yd/day and make them so tired they can barely push the locker room door open after practice". THIS is classic swim training, again, IME. There was never anything delicate or nuanced about it. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Note that - a lot of swimmers aren't positioned properly to begin with, so that aspect can be practised done at slower speeds, yes.

There is the mindset to push push push, but without the above and some shoulder ROM to go with it, pushing or "beating up the water" as coach says, can be counterproductive.

Here's a test :
1. Stand sideways using a full length mirror in your swim jammers.
2. Can you totally line up your head, shoulders, back, hips and legs, with arms straight down at your side?
3. Get as straight and compact as possible in that side view. How does that feel?

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://www.jagersport.com/
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Re: Go slow to go fast-Swimming? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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I have never managed to get my head around this question.

My 2 cents:
I have been swimming for a while now and consistently (10+ years) at what feels an easy pace (5-10km/week, 1:50mn/km, continuous swim, no pause whatsoever). I believe swimming is all about relaxing and feeling comfortable in the water.
I swim sub 30mn in a typical 70.3 and 1h for an IM. And this feels fairly easy in a wetsuit. I believe that if I can swim straight and easy a 4km that will feel like a warm up in an IM, that’s quite a win, at least from my perspective. Many of my triathlon buddies who regularly attend fast-paced swim squads in small pools cannot do that. They are not confident in the water (let alone when conditions get a bit rough, which sometimes happen in IM). They can barely swim straight in open water.

Slow swimming has enabled me to reach my goal: enjoying myself, relaxing after hard bike/run training and exiting the water in a triathlon fresh and fast enough.
I have tried to join swim squads a couple of times, this proved to be very painful and not enjoyable at all. Could I be a faster swimmer ? Maybe…but not sure the time invested/time saved in a race ratio would be worth it (I’d better be a faster rider!)

Cheers
Nico

https://mymsracesironman.home.blog/

My Multiple Sclerosis races Ironman (at least for now...)
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