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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [BT_DreamChaser] [ In reply to ]
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BT_DreamChaser wrote:


If I could take ZoomX foam and put it in the E-Pro I think that'd be the Holy Grail of run/racing shoes.

The E-Pro foam was designed specifically to be different from the nike pebax for durability reasons. If you remember in the first Vaporfly and the Fly Knit people were losing chunks of foam!

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
BT_DreamChaser wrote:


If I could take ZoomX foam and put it in the E-Pro I think that'd be the Holy Grail of run/racing shoes.


The E-Pro foam was designed specifically to be different from the nike pebax for durability reasons. If you remember in the first Vaporfly and the Fly Knit people were losing chunks of foam!

Agreed. I wish ZoomX foam was more durable. BUT from a pure performance standpoint, I believe the ZoomX foam used on a Saucony E-Pro -- all dimension specs being of a current E-Pro -- that would be the hands-down most amazing shoe based purely on performance.
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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
BT_DreamChaser wrote:
I train in the Nike Next%, Endorphin Speed and Endorphin Pro and agree with most posters. My 2 cents:

- Nike Next% (296.1 miles): I absolutely love this shoe. It loses a lot of propulsive *pop* right around 100 miles. But even at 200 miles it still has more pop then any shoe I've run in. The downside is the price, and the heel has been coming off in chunks. The back heel has lost so much foam I'm going to be forced to retire them. I don't find them unstable at all, but I'm also 179 lbs. I could easily see them being unstable on a technical course for a lighter runner. I can also run back-to-back days in this shoe and the performance is the same and my recovery is like I haven't run. The shoe is squishy and very firm at the same time.

- Endorphin Pro (25.6 miles): A much firmer ride than the Next% due to foam/ carbon plate combo I think. The biggest advantage the E-Pro has over the Next% is the ride. The falling forward, aggressive rocker is NEXT LEVEL. The ride in this shoe is absolutely amazing. It's much easier to hold a higher cadence and rather than feeling like your "bounding" in the Next%, with the E-Pro your "gliding". The E-Pro feels more like a wicked fast racing flat. The other advantage is E-Pro is 50 bucks cheaper and my guess is when I get to 300 miles giant chunks of the heel won't be missing.

- Endorphin Speed (65.7 miles): Has a similar ride quality as the E-Pro but is much less firm. More squishy but not very propulsive. Despite having the same drop/ rocker as the E-Pro (I believe?) it doesn't have that 'falling forward' feeling like the E-Pro. Maybe it's the plate difference? I can't really feel the nylon plate compared to the carbon plates. Having said all that, it's my "go to" favorite training shoe. For an everyday training shoe it's hella-fun and recovery is very good, and the softness feels good when running easy.

If I had to pick the fastest shoe and my overall favorite of the three for racing and training, hands-down it's the Next% shoe when it was between 20 and 80 miles. Having said that, I'll probably be buying more Saucony Endophin shoes based on cost and durability for straight-up training. I probably won't buy another pair of Next%'s until my next A Race.

If I could take ZoomX foam and put it in the E-Pro I think that'd be the Holy Grail of run/racing shoes.


Your vision of the impact on the gait of Next vs Endorphin Pro is very interesting.

It remind me the initial research article published on VF4%, indicating that runners moving from standard flat to the VF4% increased their gait length, reduced cadence, and move more heel striking, probably making use of greater heel cushion.

Apparently the End. Pro is more about staying midfoot striking with high cadence ?

Based off my anecdotal bro-science guess, Yes.
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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:

Tim Reed added two other reviews :

ASICS GlideRide

Nike VF Next : very very interesting long term review of this shoe by a non-sponsored pro troathlete

http://timreed.com.au/...unning-shoe-reviews/

Enjoy !
Indeed well written, honest, and quite funny :
"Running shoes are like aero helmets in that what works for one person might test poorly for another. So just because an overly opinionated vertically challenged pro triathlete states shoe opinions like it’s gospel on the shoes below, they are just that, opinions."


http://timreed.com.au/category/blog/


Some other shoes added to the Tim Reed review, including an interesting view of the Carbon X (now the version 2 is available, maybe he will add it also at some point)
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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:

Some other shoes added to the Tim Reed review, including an interesting view of the Carbon X (now the version 2 is available, maybe he will add it also at some point)

Hoka sent me the Carbon X2 a couple of weeks ago. haven't done anything other than try the L shoe on, which seemed fine. Will probably take them out early next week. Love the color though

Right now my problem is I've got way too many pair of shoes that have been sent to me waiting to be tried out and at 40-45 mpw don't have enough running miles each week to test them all out. And I also happen to really love my Brooks Transcends 7 (the 8s are out soon) and 361 Meraki 2s. For just laying down miles day in day out, super happy with those 2 shoes.

I should probably offload some of the 1-3 runs and not used since shoes. Think I have 14 pair in the current rotation pile.

Once I get them out I'll drop my initial thoughts on this thread

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 13, 21 7:33
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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Got any size 8s?

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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hahaha no.

Plenty of 10s though.

On a side note if you ever need a particular shoe in an 8 and can't find it lmk. I can usually get it for you

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Word.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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I was very interested in this topic. Did my own test at the local lab.
I ran at three different speeds: 2h49m marathon, 3:10 marathon and 3:30 marathon time.

next% was significantly faster in my case. Look at the attached pics
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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [Evgen] [ In reply to ]
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that's great, for you.

also anecdotally, i find the endorphin pro to be more enjoyable to run in than the vaporfly, although i have done all of my 5k TT's this past 10 months in the vaporfly (3).
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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [Evgen] [ In reply to ]
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Really cool that you did this. I've seen some other data showing the Saucony shoes ~1% slower than the Nikes although a small sample size, 8--12 elite runners iirc. Some of the runners were faster in Sacuony and some faster in Nike

The fact is everyone is going to have a different reaction to these shoes. For some the Saucony is going to be the fastest, for others the Nike, for others the Brooks for others it could be Adidas or Hoka.

I'd caution against chasing a shoe to wear bc everyone says it's the fastest. Everyone runs a bit different with landing, toe off etc. Some shoes are going to work better than others for some people.

Even with this new generation of go fast shoes, I'd recommend trying them on and seeing which shoe feels most comfortable and natural for you (and by you I mean everyone who reads this post)

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 23, 21 8:11
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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [Evgen] [ In reply to ]
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interesting that substrate oxidation is lowest only at 13 and 15kmh for the next%
at 12kmh it is not only a little higher but fat oxidation is the worst of the 3 shoes.
how do you explain that?
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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [mammamia] [ In reply to ]
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mammamia wrote:
interesting that substrate oxidation is lowest only at 13 and 15kmh for the next%
at 12kmh it is not only a little higher but fat oxidation is the worst of the 3 shoes.
how do you explain that?

I dont know)) It looks strange, but I was convinced, that the equipment is working correctly
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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [Evgen] [ In reply to ]
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Evgen wrote:
mammamia wrote:
interesting that substrate oxidation is lowest only at 13 and 15kmh for the next%
at 12kmh it is not only a little higher but fat oxidation is the worst of the 3 shoes.
how do you explain that?


I dont know)) It looks strange, but I was convinced, that the equipment is working correctly


I wonder if the order of tests would impact this?

Awesome that you did this!

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Last edited by: RowToTri: Jan 24, 21 9:10
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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [Evgen] [ In reply to ]
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Evgen wrote:
I was very interested in this topic. Did my own test at the local lab.
I ran at three different speeds: 2h49m marathon, 3:10 marathon and 3:30 marathon time.

next% was significantly faster in my case. Look at the attached pics

thanks for sharing

out of interest which shoe did you like best before the test?

could you tell us a bit more about the protocol how much rest between the tests
and if you have done test running outside how did that corralate to the tests .

i hope you dont mind so many questions .
thanks
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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:

I dont know)) It looks strange, but I was convinced, that the equipment is working correctly


I wonder if the order of tests would impact this?

Awesome that you did this![/quote]
It could. Would have been cool to see this as a cross over study plus so many more data points!
rd/day 1 Shoe A B C
Rd/day 2 Shoe B C A
Rd/day 3 Shoe C A B

Sigh...I wish I had a lab that I could access since I have access to just about all the newest go fast super shoes

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [pk] [ In reply to ]
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pk wrote:
Evgen wrote:
I was very interested in this topic. Did my own test at the local lab.

I ran at three different speeds: 2h49m marathon, 3:10 marathon and 3:30 marathon time.

next% was significantly faster in my case. Look at the attached pics


thanks for sharing

out of interest which shoe did you like best before the test?

could you tell us a bit more about the protocol how much rest between the tests
and if you have done test running outside how did that corralate to the tests .

i hope you dont mind so many questions .
thanks


On my feel I likes next% most of all.

the protocol:

The subject performed three series of running on a treadmill at a speed of 12, 13.5 and 15 km * h. Each series consisted of 4 runs of 5 minutes in different sneakers,
complete rest intervals between 2 min. Rest pauses were used to changing shoes. The first segment was not taken into account in further analysis;
as a warm-up. Averaged data of the last 3.5 minutes were selected for analysis. each segment to exclude the activation period. Before each episode
the subject's body temperature, temperature and humidity were recorded ambient air, the degree of saturation of hemoglobin with oxygen, the amplitude of the tooth
R in standard leads. Segmental analysis of body weight was performed before the first series of running sections. Rest time between episodes was not regulated,
but, it was not less than 5 minutes and not more than 10 minutes. Model used as a control- Nike zoom fly 3 sneakers

Research methods:
Bioimpedance method was used for segmental analysis of body weight. For determination of VO2, VCO2, VE, BF, VT, CHO, FAT, gas analysis and ergospirometry. An ergometer was used for dosing the load - running track.
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Re: Running Efficiency : Saucony Endorphin Pro same as/better than Next% [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
I'd caution against chasing a shoe to wear bc everyone says it's the fastest. Everyone runs a bit different with landing, toe off etc. Some shoes are going to work better than others for some people.


This^^^^^^ is the answer. I sooooooo wanted to love the Next % because it was the "fastest" and I used it for a while and then tested against the Endorphin Pro and the Pro was faster for me. I want to be fast but I don't want to have to change how I run just to fit "The Shoe" whatever that is at the time.
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