Dan,

This is not to argue with you all and is certainly not scientific. Yesterday I had a david *Holiday* and went on a ride that included several former Euro pros. I'm 60, the next oldest was 52, and most in their 40s. I got shellacked (!) and it may be a while before I recover! They all had aero wheels and tubeless. They lectured me on how much faster they are and that I am losing a lot by not going tubeless (I'm not against it, just not there yet) . . . I guess that's why they thought I kept getting dropped :-)!

On the last downhill I said let's do a coast test. I was riding my several year old Cervelo S3 with the standard Mavic wheels and Michelin 25m butyl tubed tires, and rim brakes. They were all on disc brakes, tubeless tires, and carbon medium rimmed aero wheels of various brands; and, were riding a Scott, Specialized, Cannondale, and Pinarello. Two of them were heavier than me (so two lighter). On the coast I clearly pulled ahead on all of them. The hill really wasn't long or steep and I wasn't ahead by a lot, but I was very surprised. Maybe it was the excess lactic acid.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Which wheel companies and tire compaines are currently offering wheels & tires like this?

I need to buy a new rear disc disc wheel and if the future is here & fast.......

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

As much on this specific topic I would tend to be the curmudgeon that thinks forward progress is leaving behind average joes of average budgets............for bike wheels and tires it is about damned time.

Freaking automobile tires might be apples to fruitcake as a comparison but auto tires have been tubeless hookless since.......decades and decades?

As for brakes.......cars and motorcycles and almost anything with a brake has been hydraulic since........freaking forever.

The frustration will be the little design details that might not standardize identical parts together, but at least harmonize ideas so that maintenance is maintenance. If you can bleed brakes on a Honda, you usually can on an Audi too.

Like the quick disconnect mentioned. That would be a harmonizing design detail, even if the specific parts don't match.

Also, if you combine the disc and hookless issue together........and you'd be moving into disc........why not move into hookless at the same time?

I think the fear on tires is the "creep" of availability. Kind of like the "creep" on tire sizes.

Purportedly they should be cheaper to manufacture and that saving passed on to the customer. (BS) They may be cheaper to make but the market decides pricing and they will cost the same, the manufacture will keep the cash, and unless people don't buy them causing a drop in demand the price will not drop.

Well, history tell us that making life easier to manufacturer usually results in better / cheaper product to consumers (could take some time for competitors to get in, but it will happen if easier)

ex: how much money you will have spend 10 years ago to get something similar to a pair of Enve Fondation 65 today (aero, 1700g for $1600)

I wonder how much that cost difference is driven by the move to disc brakes, and the resulting "commoditization" of the carbon rims (i.e. cheap rims from smaller players become more viable since extra engineering and higher cost materials aren't needed to create a rim that can handle braking heat).

Of course, I find it amusing that all of this "feature meandering" (resulting from the arbitrary decision to make the entire rim out of carbon fiber composite) down the path of disc brakes, hookless beads, etc. basically gets to a price, weight, and braking performance of a set of Hed Jet Black wheels...and with an arguably less aero result and poorer tire compatibility.

Sigh...what's that term again?...oh yeah, "mis-optimization" :-/

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Of course, one of the major factors in a downhill coast-off is the size and shape of the lump of meat holding the handlebars...

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

I was going to say that - I do pretty well in a coasting contest as my 'lightweight' days are any ones that I'm under 215!

Having said that, I'm not sure how much I'm actually losing on a rim-braked SC with HED 3-spoke, PRO disc, and Veloflex tubs. Probably not that much, really.

I dare to bet this is not because life got easier for the manufacturers like Enve or Zipp.
To the opposite, they were forced to make "entry level lineup" because Chinese rim makers advanced to the point that nowadays you can buy something pretty much equal to Enve Foundation, which is
1) equal aero
2) 200g lighter
3) built on proven / reliable / lightweight hubs and/or spokes of your choice, not some proprietary garbage
4) still 1.5x - 2x cheaper than the $1600 price you mentioned

... all of this without being hookless ;) (but you can choose hookless already as well, if you want)

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Need more W/CdA.

I am thumbs-down on hookless so far with my n=1. I inherited a pair of wheels with a new/used bike and while they are fine with new tires, I've had two different used tires blow off the rim and refuse to seat. When I try them on my trusty WTB tubeless rims, I have never had an issue.
I can see some of Dan's point with rim manufacturing, but frankly, I'm a low budget guy who buys WTB rims for 30-60 bucks and builds my wheels. As such, hooked aluminum has been solid, hassle-free for me.

You bring up an interesting point:

There are the initial manufacturing tolerances to be met, but there is also the wear aspectnd se-tolerance and .

As those new tires have to be withing very tight specs, it's not only how accurate the specs are when new, but also how well the tire adheres to these specs when mounted repeatedly, or stored (aka 'aging').