Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [stevej] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 20 13:25

Post #426 of 448 (3527 views)

stevej wrote:

tomdefietsbom wrote:

This video showcases the typical LS analysis. He recognizes the big issue being the swim, then comes up with a brilliant plan to address it. Admits he never really tackled it before. It sounds exactly the same as all previous times he said that. And each time he was going to do something about it.

This right here. I haven't even watched the video but I know exactly what he's going to say. Just like how he vowed to focus on nutrition after his previously failed kona attempts.

People wonder why their are "lionel haters" out there. This is the exact reason. He's hard to root for because fans are tried of hearing the same sob story from him after the most important race of the year and when it truly matters. He can't out of his damn and is his own worst enemy.

I really hope DTD is getting through to him.

.
.
I am not sure that people "hate" Lionel but more that they can't work out why the rabid fan club acts like he is the greatest triathlete in the world while ignoring the actual results.This thread (and the Lululemon thread) is a great example as here we have a huge conversation about the guy who came 4th and not the three dudes who beat him.The lack of chatter about George Goodwin reminds me of the almost of total lack of acknowledgement of David McNamee in Kona confirming to me at least, that for so many it is more about the social media profile and marketing than it is about the results.
.
We also see a situation that has the ST Nth American crowd hoping beyond all hope that Lionel will be the shining light of Nth American representation in the two M-Dot world champ's or big Challenge races, while paying very little attention to TO in Kona and Matt Hanson in Daytona.Matt Hanson's AMA Daytona thread has 4,400'ish views while Lionel's Lululemon thread has 3,900'ish and that is just nuts.The fact that more people have viewed the Lululemon thread than Paula Findlay's AMA thread illustrates again that it is personality that matters over results for a huge portion of the sports base here on ST.
.
Lionel is entertaining and engaging but at some stage it will be the results that really matter.

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 20 13:29

Post #427 of 448 (3518 views)

Oh I’m not suggesting some guru. What I suggested was if LS has found a coach and program he trusts go in person for as much as possible within that respect. From afar he can *afford* the gypsy lifestyle for an year.
But again from what I remember reading on here even through DTD that swimming the last 9 months wasn’t a huge “priority” vs what they did with bike/run gains (and it showed in what he accomplished).

Eta: at some point the athlete’s environment can most certainly be analyzed and figured out if that’s a limiter as well. In my case LS environment vs others is probably a limiter in terms of access to coaching resources.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Dec 15, 20 14:05

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 20 14:11

Post #428 of 448 (3479 views)

Actual Nick the end results only matter for pure athletics. For the same reason SA Spurs would win NBA title with one of best (but quietest player in league) players in history of game and yet their tv appeal sucked ass.

ETA: LS isn't some social media wanna be athlete, the guy competes at the best level and has done extremely well. Let's not act like he's not a world class athlete or that he's just a fan favorite. He's simply been able to connect to the general fanbase hella lot more than others (whether they want to connect or not), and thus he's able to sorta generate lots of different revenues of income from this instead of just one "result" based revenue. Kudos to him for being able to do that, and I think that simply puts him more in the spotlight than many others and we can then "hate" on him when he fails, etc or creates excuses (or over love him over more "deserving" athletes). But to think only the top athletes should get their due is ignoring the simple human connection in all of this. But again this isn't some "non deserving" athlete taking kudos from more deserving athletes, this is a guy that deserves his place at the big boy table.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Dec 15, 20 14:23

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [stevej] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 20 14:15

Post #429 of 448 (3475 views)

stevej wrote:

tomdefietsbom wrote:

This video showcases the typical LS analysis. He recognizes the big issue being the swim, then comes up with a brilliant plan to address it. Admits he never really tackled it before. It sounds exactly the same as all previous times he said that. And each time he was going to do something about it.

This right here. I haven't even watched the video but I know exactly what he's going to say. Just like how he vowed to focus on nutrition after his previously failed kona attempts.

People wonder why their are "lionel haters" out there. This is the exact reason. He's hard to root for because fans are tried of hearing the same sob story from him after the most important race of the year and when it truly matters. He can't get out of his damn way and is his own worst enemy.

I really hope DTD is getting through to him.

Not a hater, neither a big fan of all the excuses after the big race. The nutrition excuse is getting old. He had a great race, but three other guys were simply better.

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 20 16:00

Post #430 of 448 (3415 views)

ThailandUltras wrote:

.
.
I am not sure that people "hate" Lionel but more that they can't work out why the rabid fan club acts like he is the greatest triathlete in the world while ignoring the actual results.This thread (and the Lululemon thread) is a great example as here we have a huge conversation about the guy who came 4th and not the three dudes who beat him.The lack of chatter about George Goodwin reminds me of the almost of total lack of acknowledgement of David McNamee in Kona confirming to me at least, that for so many it is more about the social media profile and marketing than it is about the results.
.
We also see a situation that has the ST Nth American crowd hoping beyond all hope that Lionel will be the shining light of Nth American representation in the two M-Dot world champ's or big Challenge races, while paying very little attention to TO in Kona and Matt Hanson in Daytona.Matt Hanson's AMA Daytona thread has 4,400'ish views while Lionel's Lululemon thread has 3,900'ish and that is just nuts.The fact that more people have viewed the Lululemon thread than Paula Findlay's AMA thread illustrates again that it is personality that matters over results for a huge portion of the sports base here on ST.
.
Lionel is entertaining and engaging but at some stage it will be the results that really matter.

In individual sports, personality is everything. Lionel has an approachable story of having dealt with addiction and then surmounting those obstacles to clean up his life and make it as a professional athlete. Additionally, Lionel has been publishing content on youtube for the better part of two years now. So more people feel like they know him.

Think about it, looking at George Goodwin's resume, definitely should have pegged him for a top 10 finish, but how many people knew who he was. Then you had Halvard leading the team Norway bandwagon. But people are talking about Lionel because he biked and ran himself from the Back of the Pack to fourth.

Matt is a great triathlete, he did much of what Lionel did, but he has a different story than Lionel does and I think it plays into that.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 20 18:11

Post #431 of 448 (3383 views)

How would LS fare against Benny Vansteelant at his best? Is Powerman Zofingen still a thing?

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [kny] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 20 18:31

Post #432 of 448 (3375 views)

kny wrote:

How would LS fare against Benny Vansteelant at his best? Is Powerman Zofingen still a thing?

.
.
.
I wish that Powerman Zolfingen still had the prestige in multisport that it used to have.Those races in the 90's were epic and it would be great to see some of the slow swimming,uber bike/runner triathlon types go hard in the mountains.I reckon Lionel could give it a good go along with Wurf and Long (maybe Wurf would take it when you throw in the bike handling skills needed in Zolfingen)

Here is the 1993 race with all kinds of legends racing including Slowman's ex-wife. :-)
1993 Powerman Zofingen race report in english - YouTube

Benny had a career than most could only dream of in his specialized sport of duathlon and guys like that deserve so much more recognition than they get from the general multisport community. His death was such a tragedy. RIP Benny,gone way too soon.
.
.

Last edited by: ThailandUltras: Dec 15, 20 18:42

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [tilburs] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 20 19:00

Post #433 of 448 (3355 views)

tilburs wrote:

Let me explain why that point about bike is so vital to every athlete....

- You train hard and get your FTP up to 300w
- So some logic would dictate you´ll race your IM bike split at 225w (75%)
- Problem is at 225w you are burning 120g/carbs per hour
- In this flawed scenario your run *will* suck

Just to be clear, in that scenario is the problem that you are burning more than you can replenish, and your run will be underfueled? I appreciate you being on here.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 20 20:31

Post #434 of 448 (3321 views)

ThailandUltras wrote:

stevej wrote:

tomdefietsbom wrote:

This video showcases the typical LS analysis. He recognizes the big issue being the swim, then comes up with a brilliant plan to address it. Admits he never really tackled it before. It sounds exactly the same as all previous times he said that. And each time he was going to do something about it.

This right here. I haven't even watched the video but I know exactly what he's going to say. Just like how he vowed to focus on nutrition after his previously failed kona attempts.

People wonder why their are "lionel haters" out there. This is the exact reason. He's hard to root for because fans are tried of hearing the same sob story from him after the most important race of the year and when it truly matters. He can't out of his damn and is his own worst enemy.

I really hope DTD is getting through to him.

.
.
I am not sure that people "hate" Lionel but more that they can't work out why the rabid fan club acts like he is the greatest triathlete in the world while ignoring the actual results.This thread (and the Lululemon thread) is a great example as here we have a huge conversation about the guy who came 4th and not the three dudes who beat him.The lack of chatter about George Goodwin reminds me of the almost of total lack of acknowledgement of David McNamee in Kona confirming to me at least, that for so many it is more about the social media profile and marketing than it is about the results.
.
We also see a situation that has the ST Nth American crowd hoping beyond all hope that Lionel will be the shining light of Nth American representation in the two M-Dot world champ's or big Challenge races, while paying very little attention to TO in Kona and Matt Hanson in Daytona.Matt Hanson's AMA Daytona thread has 4,400'ish views while Lionel's Lululemon thread has 3,900'ish and that is just nuts.The fact that more people have viewed the Lululemon thread than Paula Findlay's AMA thread illustrates again that it is personality that matters over results for a huge portion of the sports base here on ST.
.
Lionel is entertaining and engaging but at some stage it will be the results that really matter.

Fully agree that people don’t hate Lionel. Hence the “” around haters. The Lionel fanbois just label anyone that has constructive criticism as a “hater”. I’d say most people are actually rooting for him but some are getting tiresome of him doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result.

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [stevej] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 20 20:52

Post #435 of 448 (3310 views)

stevej wrote:

ThailandUltras wrote:

stevej wrote:

tomdefietsbom wrote:

This video showcases the typical LS analysis. He recognizes the big issue being the swim, then comes up with a brilliant plan to address it. Admits he never really tackled it before. It sounds exactly the same as all previous times he said that. And each time he was going to do something about it.

This right here. I haven't even watched the video but I know exactly what he's going to say. Just like how he vowed to focus on nutrition after his previously failed kona attempts.

People wonder why their are "lionel haters" out there. This is the exact reason. He's hard to root for because fans are tried of hearing the same sob story from him after the most important race of the year and when it truly matters. He can't out of his damn and is his own worst enemy.

I really hope DTD is getting through to him.

.
.
I am not sure that people "hate" Lionel but more that they can't work out why the rabid fan club acts like he is the greatest triathlete in the world while ignoring the actual results.This thread (and the Lululemon thread) is a great example as here we have a huge conversation about the guy who came 4th and not the three dudes who beat him.The lack of chatter about George Goodwin reminds me of the almost of total lack of acknowledgement of David McNamee in Kona confirming to me at least, that for so many it is more about the social media profile and marketing than it is about the results.
.
We also see a situation that has the ST Nth American crowd hoping beyond all hope that Lionel will be the shining light of Nth American representation in the two M-Dot world champ's or big Challenge races, while paying very little attention to TO in Kona and Matt Hanson in Daytona.Matt Hanson's AMA Daytona thread has 4,400'ish views while Lionel's Lululemon thread has 3,900'ish and that is just nuts.The fact that more people have viewed the Lululemon thread than Paula Findlay's AMA thread illustrates again that it is personality that matters over results for a huge portion of the sports base here on ST.
.
Lionel is entertaining and engaging but at some stage it will be the results that really matter.

Fully agree that people don’t hate Lionel. Hence the “” around haters. The Lionel fanbois just label anyone that has constructive criticism as a “hater”. I’d say most people are actually rooting for him but some are getting tiresome of him doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result.

Many triathletes are just incredibly boring/ has a poor media presence. How do you want people to root for someone they simply don't know.
Lionel sucks at swimming like all us age athletes thats what's so relateable.
But I can even as a Lionel fan get the same feelings as the "haters".
Why is nutrition always mentioned, I a horrible bop amatur, yet nutrition is always dialed in as it doesn't really take skill.
And yes he should have done a good swim focus earlier, now we of course all fear he goes 120% swim, and either over fatigues due to trying to keep all 3 sports at max, or run/bike slides way off.
I think it is that fear people don't like. Noone fears Lucy/Matt Hanson/frodeno does that.

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [stevej] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 20 23:33

Post #436 of 448 (3263 views)

stevej wrote:

ThailandUltras wrote:

stevej wrote:

tomdefietsbom wrote:

This video showcases the typical LS analysis. He recognizes the big issue being the swim, then comes up with a brilliant plan to address it. Admits he never really tackled it before. It sounds exactly the same as all previous times he said that. And each time he was going to do something about it.

This right here. I haven't even watched the video but I know exactly what he's going to say. Just like how he vowed to focus on nutrition after his previously failed kona attempts.

People wonder why their are "lionel haters" out there. This is the exact reason. He's hard to root for because fans are tried of hearing the same sob story from him after the most important race of the year and when it truly matters. He can't out of his damn and is his own worst enemy.

I really hope DTD is getting through to him.

.
.
I am not sure that people "hate" Lionel but more that they can't work out why the rabid fan club acts like he is the greatest triathlete in the world while ignoring the actual results.This thread (and the Lululemon thread) is a great example as here we have a huge conversation about the guy who came 4th and not the three dudes who beat him.The lack of chatter about George Goodwin reminds me of the almost of total lack of acknowledgement of David McNamee in Kona confirming to me at least, that for so many it is more about the social media profile and marketing than it is about the results.
.
We also see a situation that has the ST Nth American crowd hoping beyond all hope that Lionel will be the shining light of Nth American representation in the two M-Dot world champ's or big Challenge races, while paying very little attention to TO in Kona and Matt Hanson in Daytona.Matt Hanson's AMA Daytona thread has 4,400'ish views while Lionel's Lululemon thread has 3,900'ish and that is just nuts.The fact that more people have viewed the Lululemon thread than Paula Findlay's AMA thread illustrates again that it is personality that matters over results for a huge portion of the sports base here on ST.
.
Lionel is entertaining and engaging but at some stage it will be the results that really matter.

Fully agree that people don’t hate Lionel. Hence the “” around haters. The Lionel fanbois just label anyone that has constructive criticism as a “hater”. I’d say most people are actually rooting for him but some are getting tiresome of him doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result.

.
.
Yep it is interesting.As I have said a few times,I think the guy has a huge amount of potential but has sabotaged himself a few times and may end up a member of the group of "The greatest triathletes never to have won [insert race or title here]" I look to Lucy Charles-Barclay as the female comparison to Lionel.She is entertaining,personable has a huge YouTube following and is every bit the "close but no cigar" resume that Lionel does but the Triathlon community doesn't carry on and on about her like they do about Lionel.Instead credit is given to the other females in the races she does in a far more rational and measured way and the hyperbole attached to Lionel's training isn't present in discussions relating to what Lucy does, which is strange as I think she has far more chance of elevating herself to that final level than Lionel does.Maybe if she were from the USA or Canada it would be a little different as that certainly plays a part in the rabid Lionel fan base here on ST. We certainly saw similar situations here with the Jordan Rapp and Starky fans clubs who were just so sure their man would stand atop of the podium at Kona only to be heartbroken year after year after year.

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Dec 16, 20 0:53

Post #437 of 448 (3228 views)

I thought we'd already established that Lionel is so relatable BECAUSE he makes mistakes, BECAUSE he changes things up all the time looking for "solutions", BECAUSE swimming is his weakness.

Also, I wouldn't underestimate the appeal of his slightly deprecating, slightly sarcastic sense of humor, similar to Kienle's but more showman-like.

Guys, as far the swim story goes, Lionel said the racing suit was supertight, making the front of his shoulders hurt. He kind of blames it for the swim. Maybe it's just an excuse. Certainly sounds like one. Or maybe there was something to it.

We are talking about the athlete who came second in Kona in 2017 - the rare year that he had a coach. He has the same coach now. (Kudos to @tilburs for chiming in!) The coach says they're working on all three - swim, bike and run. So the stupid excuse about the suit may not be totally an excuse after all (especially knowing how LS can screw up logistics at times - another reason for age groupers to like him - remember when he raced Ocenside 70.3 with brakes rubbing, a loose visor that came off the helmet and with ZERO miles trained out on the road before the season start?).

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Last edited by: kajet: Dec 16, 20 0:57

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]

Dec 16, 20 2:46

Post #438 of 448 (3205 views)

Correct.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [tilburs] [ In reply to ]

Dec 16, 20 9:11

Post #439 of 448 (3073 views)

Hanson live now
https://www.instagram.com/...triathletesorg/live/

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]

Dec 16, 20 10:52

Post #440 of 448 (3025 views)

B_Doughtie wrote:

Oh I’m not suggesting some guru. What I suggested was if LS has found a coach and program he trusts go in person for as much as possible within that respect. From afar he can *afford* the gypsy lifestyle for an year.

yeah, that is not what I thought you were saying. At all. Sorry about that.

I was merely pointing out that people think the "swim coach guru" is a real thing.

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]

Dec 16, 20 12:20

Post #441 of 448 (2986 views)

ajthomas wrote:

I was merely pointing out that people think the "swim coach guru" is a real thing.

Sutto is sort of a "swim coach guru".

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

Dec 16, 20 12:47

Post #442 of 448 (2966 views)

NordicSkier wrote:

ajthomas wrote:

I was merely pointing out that people think the "swim coach guru" is a real thing.

Sutto is sort of a "swim coach guru".

.
.
I think that the "swim coach Guru" thing,especially when you look at Sutto is more a case of teaching people how to "train" and not how to swim.There is a difference and something a hell of a lot of age group triathletes could do with thinking about.Sutto gets results through his way of doing things because he amps up the workload and intensity of the swim sessions to a level most non-swimmers wouldn't think of trying.He believes that hard work in the pool will help with the other sports out of the pool and he doesn't believe in trying to change peoples strokes to make them look pretty. I have to agree with him. Sure,you do hear about his breaking some athletes but you hear more about his successes.

I actually did something similar for three women in Penticton during the 90's who asked me for help.After six weeks of supervised work,which was very different to their usual masters sessions, all three of them returned to masters noticeably faster and more confident swimmers.The masters coach in Penticton is a friend of mine and she thought it would make for a good experiment and I did it with her permission .She was amazed at the results although we agreed that it might not work for everyone.
.

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [stevej] [ In reply to ]

Dec 16, 20 15:47

Post #443 of 448 (2899 views)

I just watched the video. Lionel mentioned wanting to pursue a uci legal position to help with his biking and running. Ummm what?

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [stevej] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 20 1:55

Post #444 of 448 (2822 views)

Let me translate that for you..... "moving the saddle back relative to the bottom bracket as was needed for the hour record resulted in me finding it allowed better recruitment of posterior chain and less "quad dominant" smashing of legs, which in training I found resulted in legs feeling better off the bike run wise"

Not necessarily the right answer for everyone (for example I personally prefer to ride at a much much steeper relative seat angle than Lionel) but it is what he has found to be a beneficial iterative change to his position.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [stevej] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 20 5:47

Post #445 of 448 (2756 views)

As DTD alluded to I, that decision atleast came from sound training knowledge of his body. He had what his best bike/run blocks of likely his career which then translated into real world success in tri (after setting a pretty damn good TT record + 5k TT PR).

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [tilburs] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 20 6:08

Post #446 of 448 (2750 views)

What was his seat tube angle between the two different fits? And how far back did the saddle move for the UCI position? Really curious how close he was to a UCI position before making the change. I remember the UCI legal limit for saddle setback was quite large at one point, but maybe that has changed in recent years and isn't as drastic.

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [stevej] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 20 6:27

Post #447 of 448 (2727 views)

Can´t give you those exact seat angle numbers as don´t have them to hand. But the UCI regs for endurance track events is saddle tip -5cm behind bottom bracket in vertical plane.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Re: PTO 2020 Championship at Challenge Daytona - Your Favorites [jopink11] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 20 7:16

Post #448 of 448 (2700 views)

Just realized today that the two winners were on the two oldest Tri bikes in the field. Guess it tells you that all bikes are very close/position matters more/others things are more important than super high end bikes

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.