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Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more
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Food, racing, training and expectations

https://www.slowtwitch.com/...Adventures_7797.html
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
Food, racing, training and expectations

https://www.slowtwitch.com/...Adventures_7797.html


This promise to be much.more interesting to follow than talansky. The article says IM Portugal after the giro, that is cancelled, wondering what he will do now.
Last edited by: lassekk: Oct 22, 20 11:49
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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Talansky is quite the over promiser. So he has got that
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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I do have a few questions:

  1. Is Adam going to be granted a pro card off the bat because he is a professional cyclist or will he need to earn one from a national federation?
  2. If he isn't going to be granted a pro card which races is he going to target in his attempt to obtain one? I do have some questions as to how long that may take. Coming in 8th placed Age Grouper 35-39, 16th overall Age Grouper, and 39th place overall in an American based Ironman may not be telling. I do wonder if the age group and pro fields will be deeper in Europe.
  3. His bike is clearly up to snuff and his swim is only a few mins (6-8) off of making a sold pack of pros. What is he going to do to make sure he can maintain pace on the run? After all, it was mentioned that he under biked his 4:15 and he still had a few 10 min miles in there.

One thing I have no question about:


  1. Adam will have zero problems putting in the work to get this done.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
2021 IRONMAN 70.3 World Championship, in St. George, Utah, USA on 17 - 18 September 2021 |--| IRONMAN LAKE PLACID 2021 |--| EAGLEMAN 70.3 2021
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Great interview, really enjoyed reading it. His custom shoes look insane IMHO but 8mins to put them on seriously haha... Really curious about the tri-specific version though

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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Herbert, in fairness to Talansky, maybe he has more of the physiology for peak 20-60 min power versus the diesel power for 4-8 hrs for a long course tri.

I actually don't know much about him as a person (in terms of what he talks about), but just looking at his stats, he's just the wrong size at 63 kilos at 175cm. If he could draft the blue train, and then run by Lange, it would be another story, but he's trying to bike fast off 63 kilos only, which almost no Ironman pros weigh (at least the ones that bike fast) and then he's depleted on the run because biking fast for a long time using a lot of kilojoules just requires a bigger energy storage tank. I think history has shown that no one in Andrew's weight class bikes fast as slightly larger pros in Ironmans.

So I would give him a pass for just being "not large enough" to compete at long course tri. Adam Hansen, Wurf they are in the right range as Ironman pros.
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I see what you are saying. I do think the major advantage is height, not weight. Also, BMI is a major factor. If anyone wants to plug those in, feel free.


Hansen - 6'1 170lbs

Talansky - 5'9 139lbs

Wurf - 6'0 157lbs

Lange - 5'10 139lbs

O'donnell - 5'11 165lbs

Frodeno - 6'4 165lbs

Kienle - 5'11 161lbs

____________________________________________________________________________________________
2021 IRONMAN 70.3 World Championship, in St. George, Utah, USA on 17 - 18 September 2021 |--| IRONMAN LAKE PLACID 2021 |--| EAGLEMAN 70.3 2021
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
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LifeTri wrote:
I see what you are saying. I do think the major advantage is height, not weight. Also, BMI is a major factor. If anyone wants to plug those in, feel free.


Hansen - 6'1 170lbs

Talansky - 5'9 139lbs

Wurf - 6'0 157lbs

Lange - 5'10 139lbs

O'donnell - 5'11 165lbs

Frodeno - 6'4 165lbs

Kienle - 5'11 161lbs

The only sub 140 lbs people who have done well in Kona are Lange and Welch who sat in on the bike and ran fast. Bustos too, but bike speeds in the day of Welch and Bustos were not like today (in general). It is pretty well proven from the data over 40 years that you can't bike moderately fast in Kona and run fast at sub 140 lbs. All the top guys are in the the 160's (as you have shown).

Here is the problem. Two wheels moving at an average of 42 kph use up the exact same energy (well, almost just rolling resistance may be slightly different) going from Kailua Pier to Hawi and back. Take two athletes one 62 kilos and one 72 kilos both riding at 4W per kilo. The light one has only 250W to put to the road. The heavier one has 290W to put to the road. But both use the same fixed watts to move their wheels. The rest (body and frame are proportional), but the wheel tax is fixed.

On the run the fixed tax of the wheels is removed, but let's say you gave both Frodo and Lange a fixed 10 kilio backpack tax on the run, the my money would be 1000% on Frodo since the 10 kilo backpack is a smaller percentage of his body weight.

Now in theory the lighter guys have the advantage on the run after T2, but this only works if he has energy to give and did not empty it on the bike (like Talansky has largely done biking too hard). So Lange does awesome when he rides in a pack to T2. When he has to ride solo in non Kona Ironmans and push the wind, he's largely been a non factor. The physics of the solo ride works against him.

Its why I don't think Richie Porte would beat Cam Wurf in an Ironman, but I am certain Richie would beat Cam up to half IM distance.

It is also why the lightest weight ITU guys never do well in IM. Its largely just the math.

PS. Doing kona as an age grouper at 5'6" and sub 140 lbs, riding out on the QueenK there is almost no one my size out there other than top age group women. All the top age group men in Kona largely fall into the same body dimensions as top pros. That's just self selection in our sport.
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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That actually makes sense. My old coach had be racing olys at 152lbs and then I moved to 70.3 and 140.6 and was racing at 161-162. I sit here today at a proud slow 176lbs...gosh I have some work to do. I am so slow...thanks COVID!

But I get your point. Yeah, there is something to that extra bit of weight. But the height is a factor. I think of it like this. A 6'2 person at 165lbs can store more energy, have bigger levers, and still remain strong to race the full distance.

Hansen has the body for this.

Love your post, btw.

____________________________________________________________________________________________
2021 IRONMAN 70.3 World Championship, in St. George, Utah, USA on 17 - 18 September 2021 |--| IRONMAN LAKE PLACID 2021 |--| EAGLEMAN 70.3 2021
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
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LifeTri wrote:
I do have a few questions:

  1. Is Adam going to be granted a pro card off the bat because he is a professional cyclist or will he need to earn one from a national federation?
  2. If he isn't going to be granted a pro card which races is he going to target in his attempt to obtain one? I do have some questions as to how long that may take. Coming in 8th placed Age Grouper 35-39, 16th overall Age Grouper, and 39th place overall in an American based Ironman may not be telling. I do wonder if the age group and pro fields will be deeper in Europe.
  3. His bike is clearly up to snuff and his swim is only a few mins (6-8) off of making a sold pack of pros. What is he going to do to make sure he can maintain pace on the run? After all, it was mentioned that he under biked his 4:15 and he still had a few 10 min miles in there.

One thing I have no question about:


  1. Adam will have zero problems putting in the work to get this done.

He already has his pro card. Australia makes it pretty easy for cyclists and runners at the top level to acquire a pro card.

As for running, he's working with individual coaches for both swim and run. They're Olympic-level coaches in Czech Republic, where he lives and will continue to be based. Adam doesn't even know the specifics of that run program yet.

Will see if Adam can come on here and do an AMA sometime during the off-season. He has a lot of fresh ideas when it comes to nutrition, tech/materials.
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
LifeTri wrote:
I see what you are saying. I do think the major advantage is height, not weight. Also, BMI is a major factor. If anyone wants to plug those in, feel free.



Hansen - 6'1 170lbs

Talansky - 5'9 139lbs

Wurf - 6'0 157lbs

Lange - 5'10 139lbs

O'donnell - 5'11 165lbs

Frodeno - 6'4 165lbs

Kienle - 5'11 161lbs


The only sub 140 lbs people who have done well in Kona are Lange and Welch who sat in on the bike and ran fast. Bustos too, but bike speeds in the day of Welch and Bustos were not like today (in general). It is pretty well proven from the data over 40 years that you can't bike moderately fast in Kona and run fast at sub 140 lbs. All the top guys are in the the 160's (as you have shown).

Here is the problem. Two wheels moving at an average of 42 kph use up the exact same energy (well, almost just rolling resistance may be slightly different) going from Kailua Pier to Hawi and back. Take two athletes one 62 kilos and one 72 kilos both riding at 4W per kilo. The light one has only 250W to put to the road. The heavier one has 290W to put to the road. But both use the same fixed watts to move their wheels. The rest (body and frame are proportional), but the wheel tax is fixed.

On the run the fixed tax of the wheels is removed, but let's say you gave both Frodo and Lange a fixed 10 kilio backpack tax on the run, the my money would be 1000% on Frodo since the 10 kilo backpack is a smaller percentage of his body weight.

Now in theory the lighter guys have the advantage on the run after T2, but this only works if he has energy to give and did not empty it on the bike (like Talansky has largely done biking too hard). So Lange does awesome when he rides in a pack to T2. When he has to ride solo in non Kona Ironmans and push the wind, he's largely been a non factor. The physics of the solo ride works against him.

Its why I don't think Richie Porte would beat Cam Wurf in an Ironman, but I am certain Richie would beat Cam up to half IM distance.

It is also why the lightest weight ITU guys never do well in IM. Its largely just the math.

PS. Doing kona as an age grouper at 5'6" and sub 140 lbs, riding out on the QueenK there is almost no one my size out there other than top age group women. All the top age group men in Kona largely fall into the same body dimensions as top pros. That's just self selection in our sport.

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Macca covered it all for his personal performance in the "Great Weight Debate" in 2013..

https://www.triathlete.com/...hlete-weight-debate/
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Last edited by: ThailandUltras: Oct 22, 20 20:13
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I think you are on to something with the weight analysis, and Lange defies that by swimming fast enough
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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By the way Adam Hansen negotiated on behalf of all the pros at the Giro today with the organizers to have the stage reduced from 258km down to 131 due to really bad weather on the flat stage sandwiched between the two "Queen stages".

As for Lange swimming fast, I think in a straight up swim with the taller swimmers he'd be a few tens of seconds off per km, but in a pack he can hang in the draft. And I THINK the lighter swimmer disadvantage gets neutralized in open water where we're not talking about factions of seconds or single seconds between winners and non winners in an Olympic final and you also get to draft. If you look at the shorter swimmers in the Olympics, they only have a chance in breast stroke and butterfly where there is a lot of drag (short axis strokes). On long axis strokes (free and back), no chance in general. And on the short axis strokes, you have to be pretty "dense" (BMI). For example Daiya Sato 400IM gold medalist is 174cm and 73 kilos. He is shorter than the top long course pro triathletes, but also much denser. But no one winning 100, 200, 400, 800, 1500 free is built like him. He is way too short for free only.
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
If you look at the shorter swimmers in the Olympics, they only have a chance in breast stroke and butterfly where there is a lot of drag (short axis strokes). On long axis strokes (free and back), no chance in general. And on the short axis strokes, you have to be pretty "dense" (BMI). For example Daiya Sato 400IM gold medalist is 174cm and 73 kilos. He is shorter than the top long course pro triathletes, but also much denser. But no one winning 100, 200, 400, 800, 1500 free is built like him. He is way too short for free only.


Depends on what you're definitions is of "short." But there are plenty of male olympic swimmers who did well in backstroke and sprint free who weren't "tall" by swimming standards. I swam with some of them. Generally speaking, having a longer water line helps. But specifically, you can be a lot shorter with a long torso to leg ratio and be faster than someone who is taller with a shorter torso to let ratio. This is really applicable to backstroke, but also applies to freestyle. While I would agree with you that it helps to be taller it isn't an absolute. Talented athletes with good coaches find a way regardless of their height.

And there are plenty of female Olympic swimmers who wouldn’t validate that idea.

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Last edited by: SnappingT: Oct 25, 20 7:42
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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Hi SnappingT, just for clarity of range, I gave Daiya Seto and his measurements as a smaller swimmer that has won gold medals in the 400IM. So you can work off that range. Almost no one in 100 free and 100 back olympic finals that small and of course there are a few exceptions here and there over the years, but you just have to look at the starting blocks and then the podiums to get a rough idea of what body types work (and that applies to most competitive sports. For example, in the Rio Olympics, in the 100 free, the three medals went to people between 6'4" and 6"7", In the 200 free it was LeClos the short guy at 6'3". The other two medals at 6'4" and 6'7" (Sun Yang). In the 1500 free it was smaller...6'0 to 6'3". In the 200 back they were 6'3", 6'2", 6'1". In the 400IM we had 5'10", 6'4", 5'9" (and sorry for my error, Seto was bronze, Hagino gold).

In any case, roughly speaking its just different body types per sport. Almost no elite swimmers are built like elite divers, who are not built like elite marathoners, who are not built like elite long course triathletes. Different body types just excel in different sports which was the point I was trying to make about Hansen vs Talansky. You get almost zero 5'6" men in elite swim finals, they are in diving and gymnastics, and you don't get anyone built like Phelps on the pommel horse on Olympic marathon. For some reason people don't realize that there is a pretty defined body type for long course tri!
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I don’t disagree with you that competition usually selects a specific body type/proportion for the event, but it’s never absolute. Like I said, talented athletes with good coaches can find a way.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
I don’t disagree with you that competition usually selects a specific body type/proportion for the event, but it’s never absolute. Like I said, talented athletes with good coaches can find a way.

Tim

For sure its not absolute, but you need extreme talent with extremely good coaches if you are an extreme outlier (ex Spudd Webb). No matter Phelps' talent and even if we put him on the full Alberto Salazar grew zone plan he would never have a chance against Kipchoge in a marathon and no matter how many years of 2000km swimming per year, Kiphchoge would never get into the 400IM finals. If Kiphoge was MAYBE Seto's height we could muscle him up and make him a good 400IMer, but his legs are just too long and he has zero torso.

But we can be outlier height, weight and limb and torso dimensions and all enjoy participating in any sport be it tris, gymnastics, swimming, tennis, basketball. But pretty good chance you'll be better in some than others based on body dimensions and chances of getting to elite just decline drastically if you're the wrong size. That's just something people should realize if they are an outlier body type to be an elite in the sport they are picking.
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
By the way Adam Hansen negotiated on behalf of all the pros at the Giro today with the organizers to have the stage reduced from 258km down to 131 due to really bad weather on the flat stage sandwiched between the two "Queen stages".

As for Lange swimming fast, I think in a straight up swim with the taller swimmers he'd be a few tens of seconds off per km, but in a pack he can hang in the draft. And I THINK the lighter swimmer disadvantage gets neutralized in open water where we're not talking about factions of seconds or single seconds between winners and non winners in an Olympic final and you also get to draft. If you look at the shorter swimmers in the Olympics, they only have a chance in breast stroke and butterfly where there is a lot of drag (short axis strokes). On long axis strokes (free and back), no chance in general. And on the short axis strokes, you have to be pretty "dense" (BMI). For example Daiya Sato 400IM gold medalist is 174cm and 73 kilos. He is shorter than the top long course pro triathletes, but also much denser. But no one winning 100, 200, 400, 800, 1500 free is built like him. He is way too short for free only.

Daniel Kowalski isn't that tall. 5.11 at most.
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:


Here is the problem. Two wheels moving at an average of 42 kph use up the exact same energy (well, almost just rolling resistance may be slightly different) going from Kailua Pier to Hawi and back. Take two athletes one 62 kilos and one 72 kilos both riding at 4W per kilo. The light one has only 250W to put to the road. The heavier one has 290W to put to the road. But both use the same fixed watts to move their wheels. The rest (body and frame are proportional), but the wheel tax is fixed.

....

PS. Doing kona as an age grouper at 5'6" and sub 140 lbs, riding out on the QueenK there is almost no one my size out there other than top age group women. All the top age group men in Kona largely fall into the same body dimensions as top pros. That's just self selection in our sport.


Hey Dev

I've been thinking about your comments above (which I generally agree with), but I'm not sure its just about the energy cost of the wheels, but rather that the entire rider/bike/wheel "system" moving through the air. Given that 80% of the CdA is the rider themselves, the wheels are probably a relatively small factor. Like you, I am a small, light rider at 5'8 and 65kgs. I train with guys that are between 10 - 20kgs heavier than me (with corresponding height differences), and even though we all ride at a very similar W/kg they'll put 10-20min on me over an IM bike leg (fortunately, I usually get that back on the run ;).

I believe that the main reason for their advantage is the simple physics of CdA (I assume for current purposes that we are all "aero optimized") - i.e. that CdA increases at a proportionally lower rate compared to increases in size/weight (taking into account the size of the bike frame etc). E.g. the rider who is 20kgs (i.e. 30%) heavier than me would have a CDA that might only be 20% greater than my CdA - thus when keeping W/kg and Crr constant, the 10% CdA delta gives the heavier rider the advantage in the W/kg / CdA equation. That is why a 10kg heavier rider will probably put 10min into me on an IM bike, and the 20kg rider 20min, even if we ride at the exact same ave W/kg.

Now turning to the wheel story, I was wondering (as a smaller rider and given your comments) whether moving to a 650c wheel might give me any meaningful "energy cost" advantage. On some digging, the only real data I could find was that comparing Zipp's 404FC in 650 and 700c, which showed the 650 might be 1 - 1.5W faster than the 700c 404FC. Given that that's pretty much the most "aero" 650c wheel you can currently get, I'd probably be losing W going to a 650 404, from my current HED Vanquish 8s, which are far faster wheels. So in other words, the energy cost of the wheels is fairly constant, even if one went to substantially smaller wheels (this may be why we have not seen a resurgence in 650c wheels, even with 650b becoming a more established size in road/gravel bikes). I guess this was probably your point.

So basically, I just have to try get as aero as possible and live with the fact that I have to ride 0.3-0.5 W/kg harder than my peers to keep up on the bike, and use my run as my main weapon. Fortunately, there are a still few pros who are a similar size/weight who can hold their own, under the right conditions, and show that not all hope is lost for smaller guys in IM (Josh Amburger and Lange come to mind) ;)

(Backdoor brag: and despite my size limitations I ran down a Kona qualification, where I was there left for dust by larger men and was passed by the leading AG woman on the bike, despite a few waves head start on her, hahaha).
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [SAvan] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting talk on the same topic.

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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Not saying that it isn’t true, that size matters, but you’re assuming they’re putting out the same w/kg, if talansky has higher w/kg output, they’re closer in actual power and Talansky goes faster uphill - this should even out, as it’s an advantage to be heavier downhill, but that’s not always how it works, in case of coasting, since aero is more important than weight and in general, for the same height, weighing less, the body should (in theory) have a smaller surface area and be more aero. Wether or not that actually is true, Will probably depend on where the extra weight/surface aera is placed. Extra weight is rarely an advantage in neither cycling nor running. Also, having ridden some Grand tours, I’d imagine Talansky would have a pretty good feel for fuelling
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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NAB777 wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
By the way Adam Hansen negotiated on behalf of all the pros at the Giro today with the organizers to have the stage reduced from 258km down to 131 due to really bad weather on the flat stage sandwiched between the two "Queen stages".

As for Lange swimming fast, I think in a straight up swim with the taller swimmers he'd be a few tens of seconds off per km, but in a pack he can hang in the draft. And I THINK the lighter swimmer disadvantage gets neutralized in open water where we're not talking about factions of seconds or single seconds between winners and non winners in an Olympic final and you also get to draft. If you look at the shorter swimmers in the Olympics, they only have a chance in breast stroke and butterfly where there is a lot of drag (short axis strokes). On long axis strokes (free and back), no chance in general. And on the short axis strokes, you have to be pretty "dense" (BMI). For example Daiya Sato 400IM gold medalist is 174cm and 73 kilos. He is shorter than the top long course pro triathletes, but also much denser. But no one winning 100, 200, 400, 800, 1500 free is built like him. He is way too short for free only.


Daniel Kowalski isn't that tall. 5.11 at most.

Neither is Tae Hwan Park at 1.83m. Vladimir Morozov is 1.8m and goes 20.31 50 free SCM and 21.27 LCM. Breaststrokers don't need to be 'dense'. Kosuke Kitajima was 1.78m and 73kgs (about ironman pro size) and Mike Barrowman was 1.8m and 75kgs. There are heaps of elite women much faster than pretty much all of the pro triathletes in swimming who are much smaller.
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [brasch] [ In reply to ]
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brasch wrote:
Not saying that it isn’t true, that size matters, but you’re assuming they’re putting out the same w/kg, if talansky has higher w/kg output, they’re closer in actual power and Talansky goes faster uphill - this should even out, as it’s an advantage to be heavier downhill, but that’s not always how it works, in case of coasting, since aero is more important than weight and in general, for the same height, weighing less, the body should (in theory) have a smaller surface area and be more aero. Wether or not that actually is true, Will probably depend on where the extra weight/surface aera is placed. Extra weight is rarely an advantage in neither cycling nor running. Also, having ridden some Grand tours, I’d imagine Talansky would have a pretty good feel for fuelling

This is fair that a smaller rider with high watts per kilo output will overall be superior to a larger rider with lower watts per kilo assuming they both end up with the same brute FTP. But as Lionel Sanders showed at the hour record, the caliber of brute watts and watts per kilo of pro triathletes is actually quite high already (lionel would not run as fast as he does without great watts per kilo). So Talansky would have his work cut out.
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Re: Adam Hansen on returning to triathlon and much more [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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You guys are using small quite liberally and comparing to pro swimmers. The people you speak of are smaller swimmers. They are relative giants compared to small pro triathletes like Welch, Bustos. Guillaume Romain (multiple time IM France winner), Ivan Rana, Lange (at least he has height), and now Talansky. Most of the examples you guys gave for small swimmers are too thick/dense BMI to be good triathletes (for sure ITU, but even Ironman). But Kitajima is a good example, definitely in the right size to be a good long course pro, but he's a breast stroker, not a freestyle guy (that's why I gave the example of Daiya Seto , who can do outstanding when you add in the short axis strokes).

In any case, Adam Hansen is in a much better size range than Talansky (or should he try long triathlons, Richie Porte). I know Mike Woods has expressed interest in triathlon, but he will be too light to be a top elite and does not have a real swim background. He would do well as a top age grouper or third pack pro, but I doubt he would beat top pros even with his former sub 4 miler speed. Would love to see what he can do though!
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