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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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The tire jack suggested a bunch of times already helps... a lot! I'm running tubeless on my road bike and getting tires on and off is a pain.. the jack makes getting them on easier. Tubeless solves a lot of issues but it creates other ones... I'm learning how to fix the new issues but issues are issues.

The latest is slow leaks from my presta valve screw in valve... looks like a small amout of sealant can mess with the seal and I was getting flats over night, losing pressure over rides, etc. Sprayed my wheels down, checked tape, etc and it was the valve leaking ever so slowly!

I do like tubeless though, just not without its issues.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [xeon] [ In reply to ]
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xeon wrote:
The tire jack suggested a bunch of times already helps... a lot! I'm running tubeless on my road bike and getting tires on and off is a pain.. the jack makes getting them on easier. Tubeless solves a lot of issues but it creates other ones... I'm learning how to fix the new issues but issues are issues.

The latest is slow leaks from my presta valve screw in valve... looks like a small amout of sealant can mess with the seal and I was getting flats over night, losing pressure over rides, etc. Sprayed my wheels down, checked tape, etc and it was the valve leaking ever so slowly!

I do like tubeless though, just not without its issues.

I had the same issue when I used sealant in tubes.

I started storing the bike with the stems in the 4 or 8 (on a clock) position so the sealant would drain out of the stem. It seemed to help.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
and latex tubes are a non-starter for the great majority of triathletes, because of cost, and because of daily leakdown.


Dan,

I respectfully disagree with this. I don't race, but ride a lot for fun, fitness and personal challenge. I've been riding on latex tubes for a few years now, all the time for all my riding - no, more or less flats than when I was riding on butyl tubes - on average, 1 - 3 on the road flats/year. With the main outdoor riding season now winding down. My flat total for the year - my biggest year of riding in 15+ years is, two!

Yes, I have to touch up the psi before every ride. Yes they are a bit more pricy, but not a ton more. Yes they require a bit of TLC and some technique on the install.

On high end clincher tires Conti 4000s or 5000s, the ride is outstanding! Well worth these minor details in my view!

On Road Tubeless - I'm still trying to figure out what I would be gaining over riding Conti 5000's with latex tubes at just the right psi??

I'm with you on this one (and also same setup GP5000s on latex). You can't really buy watts any cheaper than switching from butyl to latex. I also don't agree with the financial implications (because although % wise large, absolute dollars is very small), I think its literally most people just aren't aware of how significant the watts savings are going from average tires on butyl to one of the best testing tires on latex. Or people heard the latex tubes are harder to mount, but again I really don't think this is latex specific as much as it people have poor technique or Dan's issue, that pre standards sometimes there were just really insur(mount)able dimensional mismatches that make tires hard to mount at times. Also another plug for that mounting tool, I have it and when I need it, it works great.

But if tubeless is so great, why isn't it OEM yet? Every bike I've seen sold with tubeless compatible (and at this point its almost all MTBs), it doesn't come set up tubeless. That's a huge barrier to adoption, someone has to make the switch themselves instead of riding it out of the shop like that. My personal view is tubeless is a hassle (I consider myself very proficient at tire changes) and you are locked in (cannot easily swap tires to adjust to conditions, granted this is mostly a CX/gravel issue, not common in road), but if the bike came with tubeless already set up I would be much more likely to go with it. As of today I have no plans to switch over; I have one set of gravel wheels dedicated tubeless and although I have several other sets of tubeless compatible wheels I'm not switching. I'm not kidding, I bike 4000 miles last year without a flat, I probably get a flat every other year, I think I'm pretty lucky.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Yup, and reading this thread is highly enlightening.

Because the totality of this thread is the best argument against tubeless around. (And l'm an experienced mechanic who finds using latex tubes to be a piece of cake.)

Maybe tubeless will someday be ready for primetime, but, based on what l'm reading here, l doubt that's gonna be anytime soon ...

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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
Fleck wrote:
and latex tubes are a non-starter for the great majority of triathletes, because of cost, and because of daily leakdown.


Dan,

I respectfully disagree with this. I don't race, but ride a lot for fun, fitness and personal challenge. I've been riding on latex tubes for a few years now, all the time for all my riding - no, more or less flats than when I was riding on butyl tubes - on average, 1 - 3 on the road flats/year. With the main outdoor riding season now winding down. My flat total for the year - my biggest year of riding in 15+ years is, two!

Yes, I have to touch up the psi before every ride. Yes they are a bit more pricy, but not a ton more. Yes they require a bit of TLC and some technique on the install.

On high end clincher tires Conti 4000s or 5000s, the ride is outstanding! Well worth these minor details in my view!

On Road Tubeless - I'm still trying to figure out what I would be gaining over riding Conti 5000's with latex tubes at just the right psi??

I'm with you on this one (and also same setup GP5000s on latex). You can't really buy watts any cheaper than switching from butyl to latex. I also don't agree with the financial implications (because although % wise large, absolute dollars is very small), I think its literally most people just aren't aware of how significant the watts savings are going from average tires on butyl to one of the best testing tires on latex. Or people heard the latex tubes are harder to mount, but again I really don't think this is latex specific as much as it people have poor technique or Dan's issue, that pre standards sometimes there were just really insur(mount)able dimensional mismatches that make tires hard to mount at times. Also another plug for that mounting tool, I have it and when I need it, it works great.

But if tubeless is so great, why isn't it OEM yet? Every bike I've seen sold with tubeless compatible (and at this point its almost all MTBs), it doesn't come set up tubeless. That's a huge barrier to adoption, someone has to make the switch themselves instead of riding it out of the shop like that. My personal view is tubeless is a hassle (I consider myself very proficient at tire changes) and you are locked in (cannot easily swap tires to adjust to conditions, granted this is mostly a CX/gravel issue, not common in road), but if the bike came with tubeless already set up I would be much more likely to go with it. As of today I have no plans to switch over; I have one set of gravel wheels dedicated tubeless and although I have several other sets of tubeless compatible wheels I'm not switching. I'm not kidding, I bike 4000 miles last year without a flat, I probably get a flat every other year, I think I'm pretty lucky.

My giant mountain bike was set up tubeless out of the box, and I think Giant is shipping road bikes tubeless.

I love it on the mountain bike, so much so that I would convert any non tubeless wheels over to tubeless. but on the road bike I have no desire to actually upgrade anything.

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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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My specialized epic MTB I've always run tubeless, it came tubed but I swapped from new. I detest it. I really do, as I have always struggled to get the tyres to seat and so spend ages pumping like mad, or wasting 3 CO2. And this is spec tyres on roval rims.

I used to like swapping tyres as the conditions in Rotorua Redwoods vary massively between dry (hard pack) and after rain (slick and deep mud). But I now only swap every 6 months by season which is in no way indicative of actual conditions, and so I end up not riding if the weather doesn't match the tyres on the bike.

And the obvious question is why I don't move back to tubes - honestly because even swapping to add tubes to the tyres and all the sealant goo everywhere is so off putting. I do all my own wrenching, but I hate taping bars, found shimano chain pins way easier than quick links, and so just accept this is a 'me' thing not the technology.

I use latex on the race wheels, including the test rides in the month pre race. Only really had one issue with a batch of faulty latex tubes in Jan this year. I don't find them a pain as I always deflate slightly in transition / to drive in the car anyway, so re-inflate race morning. But I can see that others may struggle with the technique to get the tube in just as I struggle with quicklinks and bartape.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan et al,

Getting read to purchase aftermarket wheels for a new Tarmac sl7 (expert). Wondering which wheelsets are ERTRO compliant as per manufacturers.

Specifically, looking at Enve 45/65 foundation, but would also consider other manufacturers. It's just that Enve always seems to be the benchmark, and I've had good luck with 3 other previous wheelsets form them.

Brian

"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." --Chief Seattle
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [osugasman] [ In reply to ]
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osugasman wrote:
Dan et al,

Getting read to purchase aftermarket wheels for a new Tarmac sl7 (expert). Wondering which wheelsets are ERTRO compliant as per manufacturers.

Specifically, looking at Enve 45/65 foundation, but would also consider other manufacturers. It's just that Enve always seems to be the benchmark, and I've had good luck with 3 other previous wheelsets form them.

Brian

i think what you're looking for are hookless beads that are 2019 (and therefore 2020) ETRTO compliant. i think you're in good shape with ENVE. they are really on top of it. but i think you're also, at a minimum, okay with CADEX and Zipp as well. however, i'll ping the ENVE guys and report back.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [osugasman] [ In reply to ]
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osugasman wrote:
Dan et al,

Getting read to purchase aftermarket wheels for a new Tarmac sl7 (expert). Wondering which wheelsets are ERTRO compliant as per manufacturers.

Specifically, looking at Enve 45/65 foundation, but would also consider other manufacturers. It's just that Enve always seems to be the benchmark, and I've had good luck with 3 other previous wheelsets form them.

Brian

Just be forewarned that Enve has a list of approved tires for their hookless rims. Notably absent is one of the best performing TLR tires out there - the Conti GP5000 TLR. Conti themselves doesn’t certify these tires for hookless rims. Hopefully Conti will make running changes to this model over time so it can be used with the new hookless rims.

You have other tire choices, but it is surprising how few tires surpass the GP5000 TLR performance and some have a reputation for being fairly fragile, at least for daily use.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [SummitAK] [ In reply to ]
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Agree. Thanks. Have run the GP5000TL for an older rim brake 4.5 wheelset and was very impressed. No one wants to give away free watts.

Brian

"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." --Chief Seattle
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [osugasman] [ In reply to ]
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osugasman wrote:
Dan et al,

Getting read to purchase aftermarket wheels for a new Tarmac sl7 (expert). Wondering which wheelsets are ERTRO compliant as per manufacturers.

Specifically, looking at Enve 45/65 foundation, but would also consider other manufacturers. It's just that Enve always seems to be the benchmark, and I've had good luck with 3 other previous wheelsets form them.

Brian

I think this starts to touch on something

- its not clear to the consumer which rims are compliant to the 'latest' ETRTO standard.

- it's definitely not clear to a consumer which tyres are designed to suit rims to that new standard.

Now put yourselves in a big tyre manufacturing Co's shoes.
- are you going to redesign and re-tool to make your tyres meet that ? At how much $$$ to re-tool ?Say Conti with the gp5000. When will that REALLY get re-worked ?
- are you going to change the design now, knowing the vast majority or users will be on 'old' wheels for the next several years anyway. If you'd made the tyre 1 or 2 mm smaller to be safe previously, that reason still exists for the 90% of users (those on non-new-std rims).
- as a consumer how do I know for sure I'm getting the re-jigged tyre design when I buy it ? Will tyre manufacturers really label all the new tyres 'not safe unless used on 2019+ ETRTO wheels' in big bold writing that's visible at the point of sale / receipt in the post? I doubt it.

I'm quite happy with the idea of tubeless, and have run tubeless for years for MTB. But getting reliable safe tyres for the road bike with the wheels I have is a minefield and is a lottery when I spend £100+ on a pair of new tyres to find I have to bin them because they won't work on the wheels I have.
(Oh... and what a total PITA that for nearly all bike manufacturers they cheapskate on $10 and provide non-TL tyres with TLR wheels. Now THAT puts people off tubeless from the get-go. Having just spent £3k or a lot more on a new bike I'm told I have to drop another £100+ if I want them tubeless as the OEM tyres are non tubeless. That's rubbing salt in the wound. If needs be ship with a tube but at least fit TL tyres - and ones that work with the rims on the bike being sold at the same time !
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [BobAjobb] [ In reply to ]
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Great points all. I realize that I should wait til the Spring to buy new high end wheels, but the itch is hard to scratch sometimes. The Hed RC6 or Enve 5.6 would make the most sense for me mostly by allowing the fastest, bestest tire to be used (GP5000TL); however, that's not where the market is headed.

As far as manufacturer providing not TL tires on a TL rim, thanks Specialized. Just bought a 2021 Tarmac SL7 expert with that exact configuration, tubes inside a tube only tire on a TL rim (DT Swiss R470)...

"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." --Chief Seattle
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
iamuwere wrote:

I’d agree.


I agree, except jhammond's Iron Cross (older design of wheel) is absolutely the hardest wheel I've come across to mount tubeless tires to. And the bead jack - though a useful tool - I don't find particularly helpful in this one instance. For the exact issue the OP mentions in having the opposite end of the bead slip when you try to brute-force one end over. And with the bead jack, I find it hard to mind both ends simultaneously. Maybe some are good at one-handed jacking. I'm not so good at it.

I just the center-channel method and carefully work it around until you're down to that last 3-5 inches where it gets really hard. Then I keep one end locked in place with a thumb and start gently "persuading" the other end carefully with a good tire lever. Don't get too greedy and try to brute force that whole section at once. Just work at the ends.

I have old stans alphas, same issue. Use a zip tie or toe strap to hold it from slipping(i put one on each end when you get to the last 20% of the bead out). Finish the install with tire levers or the bead jack. Super easy

Last edited by: redlude97: Oct 28, 20 16:59
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe I am amazing or something, but tubeless isn't really hard at all. Road, cross, MTB. I have seven different wheel manufacturers and five tire brands. I can set them all up in a few minutes with just my <$100 compressor and maybe one tire lever for a couple tires. It seems most people I have helped who were struggling to get a tire on were not getting the tire fully into the channel of the rim and still had some portion stuck up on the ledge. Once they got that part down, no problem. I even have two sets of non-tubeless wheels converted with just gorilla tape and can still run 33c tires at 18psi and 200 pounds without a burp.
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