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Re: Trump supporters? [trois_pample] [ In reply to ]
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trois_pample wrote:
I don't want to derail the post too much, but... I saw a lot of similarities in our political backgrounds when you described your background and voting history (even though, at this point, I've swung much further to the left than you have). Thanks for contributing to this thread.

I'm just happy to be here and able to tell the story.
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Re: Trump supporters? [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Many are trends or initiatives begun prior to his administration (yes, many under Obama), and many are legislative successes where really congress should take primary credit. Trump just signs them into law. Oh, and some are, as you can guess, false, or have been since overturned by a court.


Also, a few are bona-fide bi-partisan successes. Many of them are "successes" only from a very partisan lens, yet are major successes for for them.

All presidents have these lists. The list that you won't find on the white house website is the extremely long list of failures. The question is whether a person is willing to even acknowledge that list, and at what point the failures become too overwhelming to continue supporting re-election. Most folks are so stuck in bias and false equivalence and propaganda that they really can't switch. For many folks the relentless cycle of failure and rationalization has effectively vaccinated them against any feeling of outrage at anything that Trump does. For some, snide condemnation from people like you has engendered a cycle of tribal animosity distinct from any policy.

Most conservatives that I know fall into four general camps. The largest, for many of the reasons listed above, are trapped in a binary world where they must always vote against Dems and will knowingly stick with a flawed candidate like Trump (and are at some level reluctant). The next largest are full-throated supporters of Trumpism (not much to do but shake one's head). The third group have left whatever the GOP has become, and easily align with moderate Democrats (RINO's, and that includes a lot of folks that live in my area). The smallest group are usually educated "Never Trumpers", who believe that the first painful step in repairing the GOP is ensuring the defeat of Trumpism. There is a lot of gray between these groups. A bunch of reluctant Trumpers could be convinced 1.) That the world is not incessantly binary and 2.) that the best path forward for the GOP is to reject Trumpism. (cue "Lincoln Project")

Of course, with your incessant attacks on all Trump supporters, you are uniquely terrible at making a convincing case ;).
Last edited by: oldandslow: Sep 30, 20 17:15
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Re: Trump supporters? [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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I am honestly just trying to figure out what trump supporters say are his accomplishments.

There was one poster a while ago who would link to some list that was like “talked about setting up a task force”.

4 years ago the trump ran on a populist agenda to fight 1) inequality, 2) corruption, 3) bringing the nation together through bi-parisianship.
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Re: Trump supporters? [sosayusall] [ In reply to ]
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sosayusall wrote:
I am honestly just trying to figure out what trump supporters say are his accomplishments.

There was one poster a while ago who would link to some list that was like “talked about setting up a task force”.

4 years ago the trump ran on a populist agenda to fight 1) inequality, 2) corruption, 3) bringing the nation together through bi-parisianship.

Is that acting tough while waving a white flag, chain smoking while complaining about the smell, or dressed to impress in manpri’s and a beret?
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Re: Trump supporters? [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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jharris wrote:
I don’t like to use the term Trump supporter. That’s like calling a Left-wing Democrat a communist. I will say Trump voter. Most Trump voters don’t like his flaws and don’t condone or support them. It’s embarrassing. However, Trump voters like how he gets things done.

Biden has zero plan an any plan he has is a mix of everyone around him. He isn’t a leader. That’s scary. I’ll take the asshole who gets things done.

Google Trumps accomplishments as President. The list is long. Amazing he could get anything done with the media and Democrat impeachment attempts gunning at him.

I’m a Trump voter. I don’t “like” Trump. He isn’t my friend. He isn’t coming to my house for dinner. I’m not a Trump “supporter”. But, Biden? Why, cuz he cares about you? That’s been the persona that I could care less about.

To answer the 2 questions I initially- I’m not changing my vote, but the debate was a shit show.

Picking this up in this thread but it's sort of a continuation of the other one. I'm not trying to shout you down and am truly interested to hear your views on some of this stuff. To be honest I don't consider myself especially liberal, but I am firmly in the camp of voting for Biden explicitly because he's not Trump.

Rather than me googling and tring to parse out what are Trump's true accomplishments and which of those might be important to his voters, can you list a few that are important to you? Typically when I engage Trump supporters on issues I get a few cookie-cutter tidbits of misinformation like "he won't give Iran $150 billion in cash" and "better border security".

In the bigger picture, I'm curious how you can neatly separate who Trump is as a person from his ability to think critically, make informed decisions, and create policy for reasons that are aligned with American values and interests. I've heard the same from lots of Trump voters, many of whom I otherwise respect - my parents, my wife's parents, the CEO of the company I work for. But I've always been taught - usually by those same people - that character and integrity matter, that treating people with respect and telling the truth matter, and that doing things the right way and for the right reasons matters. Assuming you believe those things too, why is it OK to dismiss them when it comes to the president? Are the handful of policy wins worth selling out otherwise life-guiding principles?

Lastly on the topic of leadership, you say that Biden isn't a leader because his platform is a mix of other people's ideas. I believe the best leaders surround themselves with experts and smart people and listen to their advice. They seek to unite people behind their ideas rather than divide and ridicule those who disagree. They lead by example and practice what they preach. Sure they aren't afraid to hold unpopular opinions or make difficult decisions but they don't do it in a vacuum. I don't see any true leadership qualities in Trump - can you elaborate on what you think makes him a good leader?
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Re: Trump supporters? [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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In one of your posts (maybe in another thread) you commented that Pres Trump has gotten done a lot of what he said he would during his campaign.

I’m interested in this viewpoint, because it doesn’t seem to me that he’s kept very many of his campaign promises at all, but honestly, I paid little attention to his long list of promises, so I thought maybe I was missing something.

Here’s what Politifact has to say about what promises he’s kept and broken. They’ve got him at 50% broken promises, and only 24% kept, with the rest either stalled or compromised in some way.

I’m interested in your thoughts on this list.

https://www.politifact.com/...romises/trumpometer/

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Trump supporters? [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
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LifeTri wrote:
Trump couldn't control himself. He couldn't stop his anger. I want to say that he is a racist -- but I do not feel that is an accurate description. To have hatred for another requires you to care about others in general. I have come to the conclusion that Trump is an opportunist, a narcissist, and basically a real honest-to-god sociopath/psychopath. I do not believe he has any feelings towards others and by virtue of that he can't be a racist. Trump is something worse.

This is pretty much it. Sociopaths don't have plans because they're lazy, impulsive, lack of empathy, aggressive, boundary pushing, peripheral, predatory, and opportunistic without regards to care. They have targets. The way it should be looked at with his way of disavowing Proud Boys isn't because he was racists in that sense, but because he didn't want to lose their vote unless it will cost him other votes. He most likely didn't know or cared. Just like claiming to be a christian that reads the bible and goes to church. He claims it because he needed their vote without a conscience.
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