Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
As long as they have sufficient production capacity, I think this is going to be a big hit for Campagnolo. While many gravel (and some road) riders have been not-so-patiently waiting for a mechanical 1x12 system from SRAM, or any 1x12 gravel/road system from Shimano, Campy swoops in with a 1x13. Touche, bitches! Yeah, Rotor did it first, but there were some serious compromises, none the least of which was a new freehub standard that required proprietary wheel dishing. While Ekar requires yet another proprietary freehub, it fits in the same space as the legacy road freehubs (i.e. same wheel dishing) and promises to be much more accessible as the Goliath hubmaker in the industry (DT Swiss) is already onboard. If there's a current Campy freehub option for your wheelset, there may eventually even be an Ekar compatible freehub you can retrofit.

The bikepackers and goat-trail-seekers will lament that the gear range doesn't go low enough, the hard-core gravel racers will wring their hands over the potential drivetrain losses of the 9T cog, and 1X-woke roadies will wish for tighter cluster options. But, between the 4 crank options and 3 cassette options, the vast middle of gravel riders will likely be able to find satisfactory gearing. One of the biggest complaints about SRAM’s 1x12 offerings, besides the lack of a mechanical option, has been the gap in the cassette range between the 10-36 and the Mullet 10-50. All three Campy casettes fit in that gap. It seems a very well aimed first shot for Campy's official entry into the gravel market.

If this takes off as I think it will, I can see Campy trying to capitalize by expanding the range; both price-wise and to address some of the off-center potential use cases. More cassette offerings, EPS (which is what could really make this a killer TT option), And maybe, down the road, a lower priced offering with more aluminum/steel and less carbon/titanium.

I have no doubt that the aftermarket will come with compatible crank/chainring options. It may be that the current offerings will already work. And if Microshift wanted to, they could have a compatible bar end shifter on the market in a matter of weeks. But they never jumped at what I thought was an obvious opportunity to make bar end shifters for Campy 12 speed, so who knows if they'll see this an opportunity. I’d image there might even be some demand from XC MTBers for a flat bar shifter, especially if the chain proves compatible with current 12-speed chainrings. As for aftermarket cassettes, almost everything 12-speed has been aimed at the +/-500% MTB crowd. I'm really surprised that neither Sunrace nor Miche has come to market yet with SRAM 12 speed compatible cassettes in road-specific ratios that fit HG freehubs. I'm not holding my breath for Ekar-compatible aftermarket cassettes anytime soon....if ever.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Sep 25, 20 9:25
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [gary p] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
gary p wrote:
The bikepackers and goat-trail-seekers will lament that the gear range doesn't go low enough
Quote:
and 1X-woke roadies will wish for tighter cluster options.
Or both at the same time. I won't be surprised if the industry decides that 13-speed is about the appropriate time to drop multi-chainring setups, but I'll be extremely disappointed.
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
iamuwere wrote:
After going 1x, I can't imagine going back to 2x. Just so much easier. I have had fewer mechanicals and easier riding and this is coming from someone who has gone 2x5 to 2x6, 3x5, 3x6, 2x7, 3x8, 3x9, 2x10, 2x11 and now 1x12. 1x12 is simply better. I'll happily go 1x13 if and when it is functional.

Like you, I have gone through all the interations of gears over the years, but I'm having a hard time seeing how a 1x on my gravel bike is better than my 2x11 etap with 50-34 paired with an 11-32 cassette that I'm currently using. An electronic wireless FD has quelled my desire for a 1x on a gravel bike. It just works so well and never mis shifts or loses a chain.

_______________________________________________
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [gary p] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
gary p wrote:
. I'm really surprised that neither Sunrace nor Miche has come to market yet with SRAM 12 speed compatible cassettes in road-specific ratios that fit HG freehubs. I'm not holding my breath for Ekar-compatible aftermarket cassettes anytime soon....if ever.


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000224300268.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.1.4e4d1b686eVnqR


As for Ekar, I just built my gravel bike with Chorus 12, the only logical reason for me to change would be the minimal clearance between chainrings and frame (on Aspero). That doesn't stop me trying to think of other reasons. At this stage I may have to live vicariously and build a gravel bike with Ekar for my wife.
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [HTupolev] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
HTupolev wrote:

I won't be surprised if the industry decides that 13-speed is about the appropriate time to drop multi-chainring setups, but I'll be extremely disappointed.


Campagnolo, despite being the first of the big three to 13, will probably be the the last holdout for 2x. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't do a 2x13, now that they have 13 cogs in the same spacing as their current road derailleurs, although I'm not sure I'd see the point.

I personally think 14 is the magic number for 1x as a truly viable 2x replacement, but you may be right. SRAM will likely be the first to quit. They're 3/4 of the way there already, having not launched a 2x MTB or mechanical road 2x group in over 6 years.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Sep 25, 20 16:39
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [gary p] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
gary p wrote:

I personally think 14 is the magic number for 1x as a truly viable 2x replacement,


Viable for what purpose? For MTB and CX it's pretty much a done deal. For most TT/triathlon it doesn't make much sense to have a FD except for training ride purposes. Excepting may the odd triathlon with a ton of climbing.

Road and all-terrain gravel are the only real holdouts where 2x still make sense.
Last edited by: trail: Sep 25, 20 19:08
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm a fan of Campagnolo which does not have rational reasons but more historical and emotional.
I have since 5 years an athena eps shifting group on my p5. Works well (exception: when I have a sprocket containing 17-18-19 the derailleur tends to "stick" to the 18 (it does not go to the 17 or 19 well).

You need indeed forgiveness with the brand.
I also tried to mount a Campy crankset, but that did not fit to my p5 because of the q-factor.
Just imagine, a crankset which does not fit to something like a p5. You do not expect something stupid like that.
It was the same problem (distance < 1 mm) as shown in the picture of your linked article, and it hit the chainstay when riding. Interesting to see that that q-factor problem still exists.
Last edited by: longtrousers: Sep 26, 20 2:29
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I remember seeing a Friction Facts study that said the 48:10 was 6 watts slower at 250 watts than the 53:11. As someone that never rides that gear at 250 watts, what would you expect the losses to be for a 1000-watt sprints at 20-30 seconds? Outside of that sprint context, I like the idea of the 1x on gravel.
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
iamuwere wrote:
2. zero dropped chains on TT, Cross, gravel, MTB in three years on 1x, a few including a dropped chain bad enough to remove a crank arm three times on 2x during that time. Sure, someone will say they aren't set up right. Things can only be so good. Fine for 9 months then a random bad dropped chain. Never lost a 2x chain on my TT until during a race and it cost me a podium. No idea why it dropped. It hasn't in two years since.

I had this happen in a triathlon. Running out of transition my rear wheel hit something and managed to “hop” and knock my chain off which then got stuck. Cost me a podium.

Riding my MTB 1x for... four years now?... I’ve never lost my chain and that includes some pretty rough riding.
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [Minorsubplot] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Minorsubplot wrote:
I remember seeing a Friction Facts study that said the 48:10 was 6 watts slower at 250 watts than the 53:11. As someone that never rides that gear at 250 watts, what would you expect the losses to be for a 1000-watt sprints at 20-30 seconds? Outside of that sprint context, I like the idea of the 1x on gravel.



~24 Watts. Pretty sure it's just linear.

(stipulating that your 6W is correct...I thought I had all the FF reports, and don't see that data)
Last edited by: trail: Sep 28, 20 15:32
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [Minorsubplot] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Minorsubplot wrote:
I remember seeing a Friction Facts study that said the 48:10 was 6 watts slower at 250 watts than the 53:11. As someone that never rides that gear at 250 watts, what would you expect the losses to be for a 1000-watt sprints at 20-30 seconds? Outside of that sprint context, I like the idea of the 1x on gravel.

Can we put the friction of the smallest cogs to rest? It likely a smaller difference than one wrinkle in your sleeve.

Let's think rationally:

FictionFacts/VeloNews said 6W, but that was with a crap chain, pulley wheels, and other inconsistencies on the 1x. The shimano 2x system in that chart shows the cross chained 39x11 with the same friction as sram 48x14, so obviously this is not an equivalent measurement. In the same chart the difference between Shimano's 53x11 and cross chained 39x11 is just 2W. So a 1x 48x10 would probably add 1-3W of friction if all things were equal (chain, lube, pulley wheels, etc).

But less assume it's up to 6W. How much time do you spend in your two smallest cogs? In the other cogs the difference is within measurement error, so let's focus on the two smallest. I spend far less than 1% of my riding time there, but lets pretend that's up to 5%.

Over a bike ride, the added friction would normalize to 0.3W in the worst case and realistically more like 0.1W

I dont care who you are but you're probably not sweating about 0.1W even if you're a ST regular. Otherwise you'd worry about whether you shaved this morning or yesterday. Or whether that pimple on your nose would be faster popped or unpopped.
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks. I saw the reference to Friction Facts in a Zinn article a year or so back I believe; I never had the actual FF report.
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BigBoyND wrote:
Minorsubplot wrote:
I remember seeing a Friction Facts study that said the 48:10 was 6 watts slower at 250 watts than the 53:11. As someone that never rides that gear at 250 watts, what would you expect the losses to be for a 1000-watt sprints at 20-30 seconds? Outside of that sprint context, I like the idea of the 1x on gravel.


Can we put the friction of the smallest cogs to rest? It likely a smaller difference than one wrinkle in your sleeve.

Let's think rationally:

FictionFacts/VeloNews said 6W, but that was with a crap chain, pulley wheels, and other inconsistencies on the 1x. The shimano 2x system in that chart shows the cross chained 39x11 with the same friction as sram 48x14, so obviously this is not an equivalent measurement. In the same chart the difference between Shimano's 53x11 and cross chained 39x11 is just 2W. So a 1x 48x10 would probably add 1-3W of friction if all things were equal (chain, lube, pulley wheels, etc).

But less assume it's up to 6W. How much time do you spend in your two smallest cogs? In the other cogs the difference is within measurement error, so let's focus on the two smallest. I spend far less than 1% of my riding time there, but lets pretend that's up to 5%.

Over a bike ride, the added friction would normalize to 0.3W in the worst case and realistically more like 0.1W

I dont care who you are but you're probably not sweating about 0.1W even if you're a ST regular. Otherwise you'd worry about whether you shaved this morning or yesterday. Or whether that pimple on your nose would be faster popped or unpopped.


Appreciate the response, but I think the question's still valid for someone thinking about optimizing for the bunch sprint and not looking to average watt losses across a whole ride. If the relationship is linear (and holding 1000 watts for 30 seconds has a cost of ~24 watts), then the cost is actually 2.4% of your power output during that critical 30 seconds of the ride, and I don't think most slow twitchers (who are also fast-twitch-curious) would want to give that up without consideration.

For pretty much every other context, I'm in agreement with you.
Last edited by: Minorsubplot: Sep 28, 20 16:50
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [Minorsubplot] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Minorsubplot wrote:

Appreciate the response, but I think the question's still valid for someone thinking about optimizing for the bunch sprint and not looking to average watt losses across a whole ride. If the relationship is linear (and holding 1000 watts for 30 seconds has a cost of ~24 watts), then the cost is actually 2.4% of your power output during that critical 30 seconds of the ride, and I don't think most slow twitchers (who are also fast-twitch-curious) would want to give that up without consideration.

For pretty much every other context, I'm in agreement with you.

Yes, if you need to optimize for the tallest gear then you should consider it.

Given that the 6W is actually closer to 1-3 W, in your 1000 W example the difference is closer to 4-10 W. Maybe you can also put down 1004 W instead of 1000 W since you had some aero drag savings (ring count and size + FD delete) throughout the rest of your ride. Just spit-balling here. lol. But I think the net differences may be so small that they are on the scale of things that we don't even discuss on ST, like bar tape thickness or valve extender length
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm not terribly worried about a handful of watts, but the SRAM AXS shifting and riding experience is terrible--noisy, clunky, slow shifts, still throws chain over big ring occasionally. The 48-10 is a terrible gear to sprint in. Just went back to a 53/39 11/28 Shimano groupset--have my sanity back. Bliss.
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BigBoyND wrote:
Minorsubplot wrote:

Appreciate the response, but I think the question's still valid for someone thinking about optimizing for the bunch sprint and not looking to average watt losses across a whole ride. If the relationship is linear (and holding 1000 watts for 30 seconds has a cost of ~24 watts), then the cost is actually 2.4% of your power output during that critical 30 seconds of the ride, and I don't think most slow twitchers (who are also fast-twitch-curious) would want to give that up without consideration.

For pretty much every other context, I'm in agreement with you.


Yes, if you need to optimize for the tallest gear then you should consider it.

Given that the 6W is actually closer to 1-3 W, in your 1000 W example the difference is closer to 4-10 W. Maybe you can also put down 1004 W instead of 1000 W since you had some aero drag savings (ring count and size + FD delete) throughout the rest of your ride. Just spit-balling here. lol. But I think the net differences may be so small that they are on the scale of things that we don't even discuss on ST, like bar tape thickness or valve extender length

<putting my aero tinfoil hat on> BUT DIDN'T SILCA RELEASE AERO BAR TAPE, MAN?! (https://silca.cc/...nastro-aero-bar-tape)

Seriously though, I appreciate what you're putting down.
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
A power meter with an optimistic best error of 1% and up to 2.5-3% means at a 1000w means you can’t even be sure about any of it
Quote Reply
Re: Campy EKAR gravel 1 x 13 group [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes exactly. Miniscule differences.
Quote Reply

Prev Next