Despite some useful info, as in typical in ST, You haven’t gotten many, if any, actual responses to the specific questions you posed. I would say what you said above is about right. First 5 mins should feel hard (8/10), next 5-7 mins should feel really hard (9/10), next 5 mins should be hanging on for dear life, hating yourself and the stupid test, questioning why you bought a powermeter and why you didn’t just do the ramp test, and then push it across the finish line with whatever is left. Personally, I find (1) musics helps-I change songs ever 2.5’ so I get at least a little new energy frequently; (2) breaking it up into smaller segments helps too (5’ or something along the lines of what I said above). Have you ever done a 20’ workout in any endurance sport (run, swim, row, bike)....If so, channel that feeling. Just do the test and you may have to retest shortly thereafter if you Mis-pace. And remember, it’s a single test. One piece of info on a single day. You need a starting place but I honestly believe that more experienced riders out too much stock in this single-day test and forget about all the other data they have collected which probably gives them a better sense of their FTP than that one-day test.

I think it’s quite the opposite. I believe those who perform the shorter tests are seeking validation of higher FTP numbers. If you understand the definition of FTP, I would say the closer you can get to testing at a full hour, the closer you will approximate your actual FTP. If you don’t want to do that, the shorter tests obviously provide close approximations. DD’s point is that many, many riders overestimate their FTP and then can’t perform intervals at numbers that should be readily achievable based upon their purported FTP.

Of course I can't speak for anyone but myself, but my 40K power is higher than my ramp test power by a few percent. I tend to do ramp tests in the off-season and I race 40K so often in the core season that there's no point in testing at all. If there's bias in a ramp test, it's easy to just scale a bit more?

And I guess it depends on the purpose of the test. If your goal is to estimate FTP as close as possible to the original definition, then I agree that ~40K is better.

If the goal is to have a test that you can repeat regularly with consistency and relative ease to measure changes in fitness, I prefer ramp. You can do the test weekly or biweekly almost as a warmup for the real workout. A true all-out 40K is *hard*. Mentally. I like to save those efforts for race day. I just couldn't put myself through a biweekly - or even monthly - 40K all year. I race so often as part of the core season that I need a break from that.

Bingo! Exactly as I was prescribed by my coach yesterday!

That's pretty much how I approach it as well.

I searched, but couldn't find it. Do you perhaps recall the title of the thread?

Try these 2 threads:
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...tring=joelo#p7271160

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._a_half%3F_P7296669/

Split the test into 4 * 5 min blocks. You can go by target power or PE.

1st block should be at 95% or 7/10 PE. After 5 mins increase to 100% or 105% if PE felt lower. This block should start at 8/10 and finish at 10/10. 3rd block is time to assess whether you can hold the same power or need to back off slightly. 4th block you'll know what you need to do. A minute into 4th block try a slightly higher gear or cadence, you'll know immediately if you can maintain or Not. With two minute to go move up a gear. Alternate moving gear, cadence, standing or sitting every 20 seconds. With 30s to go move up two gears and Sprint it out.

This works for me and anyone I've worked with.

Try our What's My FTP? Garmin app. Alternatively, create a free account if you don't have a compatible Garmin. With Xert, you don't have to pace it or do anything special. Just ride and give it all you have. 20 minutes. 19 minutes. 15 minutes. X minutes. Stop in between if you need a drink. Go harder. Go easier. Doesn't matter. Xert figures it out for you.

Good luck!

Disclosure: I'm the founder of Xert. The What's My FTP? Garmin app is free. Free accounts don't need credit cards. Try it without any strings attached.

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Armando Mastracci, Founder of Xert, an advanced data analytics and training platform. Blog, Podcasts

I've played with the xert garmin app a fair amount. It does track pretty well with other methods---even when using it ad-hoc. The key with xert seems to be that efforts need to be "to failure" or nearly so. Yes, you can do submax efforts, and xert will give you an estimate. But, if you only do a submax effort for 50% of the duration you "could have" then xert will underestimate your threshold. That said, worst case is that you do a max effort for the max duration you can...its hard to do more than you can.

So, What I like about xert is that it seems to be difficult (or impossible) to OVER-estimate your FTP. At least that's been my experience with it thus far. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a degenerate case or two---possibly involving some short VERY hard efforts. But, for me...it has always been a few watts lower than estimates using other means...assuming a reasonably steady state effort. For an evenly paced the estimate will slowly increase to your actual FTP value. So, if you stop early...or, try to go to hard....you're more likely to end up with an estimate that is a tick low rather than overshoot.

Thus, you end up with a conservative estimate of your FTP and training zones---which is a good thing.

The app makes a rough estimate of the anaerobic contribution to your above threshold efforts. Like the 95% rule for FTP tests only scaling it depending on previous data (we do know that the 95% rule doesn't apply to everyone, right?). So if the app is underestimating, and the efforts are exhaustive, it may be that whatever you're using to estimate it is overestimating instead, especially if there isn't a quantification of your anaerobic capacity (High Intensity Energy or HIE in Xert terms).

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Armando Mastracci, Founder of Xert, an advanced data analytics and training platform. Blog, Podcasts

This is my favorite and most unrated comment here.

Thanks for all the additional input. As a new PM owner and first FTP test, my goal is to set zones for training. I'm training for the Galveston 70.3 on Nov 22nd, assuming it's actually held. If it's cancelled, I'll probably try to do an DYI 70.3 on Nov 23rd. I realize from everyone's input that this test will probably not be exactly correct as I probably won't pace properly but unless I die at 10' I hoping it will at least give me training zones. I'm hoping I'll be reasonably decent at the pacing as I've done several training sessions with 20' or 30' at z3 (HR zones) with 1' and 5' max efforts thrown in.

I'm sure it will help in the future to see changes in my fitness and I look forward to seeing improvement.

I'll take a look at the Xert app. I have Fenix 6 and use Garmin Connect and Strava, so I'll see what it can do for me. I've never heard of it so I have some research to do.

Thanks again for the input.

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Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.

LEBoyd, on the Xert side you will need to do a fair bit of learning because it is not all that intuitive, as is the case for many new ideas it takes a while to smooth out the rough edges and make the platform understandable to lay users. There are some real powerful items within the XERT ecosystem. One is the idea of MPA (Maximum power available) that is somewhat similar but not the same as W prime. The strength in Xert is it can be thought of sort of like a work capacity factor, so that when you go above your TP (their term for a factor similar to FTP) you draw down MPA, at the point where your MPA (this is measured in watts) is the same or less than your current power output then you are in failure mode (your are at RPE of 15- 20 on Borg scale or say 8/10 in other approaches). They use these efforts to re-calibrate your TP and other factors. The other real cool item in their training platform is you can set your intervals to change in duration based upon how MPA is drawn down, meaning if you draw it down faster the interval shortens or conversely it will lengthen if you are not drawing it down as fast.

So it is a very different approach to training and determining your fitness measurement because your TP is a constantly changing item in their system and so that itself is a new concept. This is a very interesting platform but expect to have to do a lot of learning to get a handle on how it works. It is powerful and still evolving as they get more info and research into how their concept works in the real world.

Good luck.

have to go about 3/4 of the post to get to the ramp test specific part: https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=7297625#p7297625

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I haven't had that issue personally - just the opposite, maybe as an aerobic-dominated type.

But if someone did they could easily just scale by a little more?

I understand the rationale for the longer test. I do lots of 40Ks, and those are valuable. The best test is the race, per Coggan.

But I also think frequent testing can be really valuable. And I'm just not going to do a biweekly 40K at max effort *all year*. Those are brutal efforts. They wear on me mentally. A former coach I really respect gave me a good bit of totally non-scientific advice. He said his theory was that every you get X minutes of truly max effort. And you want to choose carefully when you spend those minutes.

I like the idea of testing what you're going to be working instead of taking one single test to apply a million percentages to.

People are also way too beholden to the magic % their plan spits at them for a workout when their body might not work that way. Adjust a touch depending on the workout or where your body works or doesn't work as well.

If I'm training for RR, crit, etc.......with the VO2 stuff.........I'm not going to do a ton of 2x20's. Maybe none. So knowing my hour power is worthless. Maybe knowing 20min power is worthless.

I'm doing TT stuff right now, so I HAVE done open road 10mi and 40k attempts. Those intervals are longer. Also, it helps keep me honest with my sweetspot work. But, that's because a 40k is well........40k.

Make the test more specific to what you're going to train.

Thanks s5100e. By far the best place to start with Xert is by listening to our podcasts. http://baronbiosys.com/...through-lab-podcast/

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Armando Mastracci, Founder of Xert, an advanced data analytics and training platform. Blog, Podcasts

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the underestimation was significant. Its always been just a few watts---probably mostly dependent upon how deep into the well I wanted to go. Personally, I fall into the Desert Dude camp of using a long 40-60min test in most cases---when I care. I'm also firmly in the camp that its better to have a FTP that's set a little low, than a little too high---the difference can be managed through what part of the training zone you target based on last weeks results.

My point was only that because the Xert estimate asymptotically approaches FTP from below (for evenly paced efforts, based on how exhausted you're willing to go), it seems like it would be harder to "game" to get a higher number.

Yeah no worries Tom_hampton. You're right that it will only underestimate if you don't push yourself all the way. One thing that helps with WMFTP is to do an all-out, hard-as-you-can-go 5s before doing your effort to exhaustion. Avoiding this initial step is one way to potentially "game" it, in fact.

Note that we don't generally recommend very long test efforts since they can often expose the athlete's ability to suffer rather than their threshold power. They aren't one and the same and training an athlete that has their FTP to low, lengthens the improvement process. One thing to be conscious of is that it is generally in the best interest of the coach/platform to underestimate your FTP when you first start out (i doubt that anyone does their first FTP test properly). This makes improvements more likely and visible, providing positive reinforcement to the athlete, albeit a bit slower than what is optimal.

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Armando Mastracci, Founder of Xert, an advanced data analytics and training platform. Blog, Podcasts