Re: Enve SES road tires [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 20 14:19

Post #26 of 42 (2446 views)

Carl Spackler wrote:

There are ETRTO standards for rims but not tires. So it's an issue, unfortunately, as Dan saw first-hand: They shared the results with us, and we were shocked to see a huge variability in both tire bead diameter and stiffness. We’ll share data as we get it, but take our word for now that tires are far from created equal. https://www.slowtwitch.com/...e_Test_Lab_7532.html

Why wouldn't a company make note for the safety of their customers? Zipp also encourages confirming compatibility: https://sram.zendesk.com/...t-disc-brake-wheels-

I agree that we're in sort of a Wild West of road tubeless. With emerging standards for wheels, and not much for tires.

But making sure there's a good fit as a wheel-tire system is a shared responsibility. What Enve was talking about was tubeless tires that were designed around hooked rims having issues with their hookless rims. Hookless rims that pre-dated the new standard. If Enve wants to make lists of tires that work well with their wheels, then great. But I found it a bit arrogant to hand-wave the problems as a "tire manufacturer problem". It's an industry problem.

Last edited by: trail: Aug 6, 20 14:20

Re: Enve SES road tires [gregk] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 20 14:21

Post #27 of 42 (2443 views)

gregk wrote:

Tom A. wrote:

Carl Spackler wrote:

Are Zipp and Giant off the back too? Hookless is little more than being easier to manufacture https://www.bikeradar.com/...-rims-road-tubeless/

Yeah...I read that...and aside from the questionable claim of a "better" transition aero-wise between the tire and rim, everything in that article quoted as an advantage is in manufacturing improvements (i.e. easier/cheaper to make). What am I missing?

When Dan and I sat down in an ENVE conference room last year, I asked several specific questions about hookless and aero. Where we landed - what they said - was that hookless was not done for aero reasons. Manufacturing ease / BSD precision was a big driver, and their tests showed improved rolling resistance compared to hooked (due to the increase in tire volume) - which they decided internally to be a (more than) worthwhile trade.

There seemed to be a few lingering question marks around their rim design with wide tires - and potential aero performance at high yaw... but this was outside of the realm of tri, and more of the Gran Fondo / dirt scene (and I don't really have any concrete take-homes to share from it anyhow). If I recall correctly, they planned to do a lot more aero testing with wide rims/tires.

Aero questions are the wrong ones to ask about hookless. Safety questions are the right ones to ask. Rolling resistance is a silly thing to claim as a benefit because the wheel manufacturer can either make the internal width wider or the rider can just put on a wider tire.

Like I said above, the only reason to go hookless is to eliminate a machining step so it is cheaper to manufacture the wheels. This limits the tires you can use on the wheel and makes the wheel dangerous to use with many of the best tires. And of course the wheels are not less expensive despite being cheaper to make.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: Enve SES road tires [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 20 14:29

Post #28 of 42 (2436 views)

RowToTri wrote:

gregk wrote:

Tom A. wrote:

Carl Spackler wrote:

Are Zipp and Giant off the back too? Hookless is little more than being easier to manufacture https://www.bikeradar.com/...-rims-road-tubeless/

Yeah...I read that...and aside from the questionable claim of a "better" transition aero-wise between the tire and rim, everything in that article quoted as an advantage is in manufacturing improvements (i.e. easier/cheaper to make). What am I missing?

When Dan and I sat down in an ENVE conference room last year, I asked several specific questions about hookless and aero. Where we landed - what they said - was that hookless was not done for aero reasons. Manufacturing ease / BSD precision was a big driver, and their tests showed improved rolling resistance compared to hooked (due to the increase in tire volume) - which they decided internally to be a (more than) worthwhile trade.

There seemed to be a few lingering question marks around their rim design with wide tires - and potential aero performance at high yaw... but this was outside of the realm of tri, and more of the Gran Fondo / dirt scene (and I don't really have any concrete take-homes to share from it anyhow). If I recall correctly, they planned to do a lot more aero testing with wide rims/tires.

Aero questions are the wrong ones to ask about hookless. Safety questions are the right ones to ask. Rolling resistance is a silly thing to claim as a benefit because the wheel manufacturer can either make the internal width wider or the rider can just put on a wider tire.

Like I said above, the only reason to go hookless is to eliminate a machining step so it is cheaper to manufacture the wheels. This limits the tires you can use on the wheel and makes the wheel dangerous to use with many of the best tires. And of course the wheels are not less expensive despite being cheaper to make.

The fact that I asked aero questions doesn't mean that I didn't ask a lot of other questions - including many about safety. It's my job as a journalist to ask lots of questions about every angle I can think of. Aero questions aren't "wrong". I was responding to someone else's aero-related comment.

Re: Enve SES road tires [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 20 14:37

Post #29 of 42 (2428 views)

Carl Spackler wrote:

There are ETRTO standards for rims but not tires. So it's an issue, unfortunately, as Dan saw first-hand: They shared the results with us, and we were shocked to see a huge variability in both tire bead diameter and stiffness. We’ll share data as we get it, but take our word for now that tires are far from created equal. https://www.slowtwitch.com/...e_Test_Lab_7532.html

Why wouldn't a company make note for the safety of their customers? Zipp also encourages confirming compatibility: https://sram.zendesk.com/...t-disc-brake-wheels-

But wait...what about the "homogenization" with ETRTO and ISO 5775 that is supposed to happen, which addresses BOTH? Last we heard in the middle of 2019 was that the ISO 5775 was ready to be released soon, but then there was some last minute proposals (led by Stan's) that was trying to get a "B" standard adopted...

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/...20Morgan%20Nicol.pdf

...and then all of the sudden at the beginning of this year, ETRTO unilaterally pushes out an update. Not sure what to make of all of that...except, that when bead hooks are present, there's less likelihood of tire blowoff, even without the 621.95mm+/-0.5mm specification of the newest ETRTO standard.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Enve SES road tires [Chemist] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 20 14:57

Post #30 of 42 (2416 views)

It sounds like it might not be the fastest race day tire, but might make a good every day training tire.

I don't know about the GP5K since I havent ridden it yet. I still have a few GP4K SII's in my parts closet I want to use up before trying the 5K. After years of riding the GP4K, GP4KS, and 4K SII the weak spot for me has always been the sidewall. I've had more issues with sidewall cuts than anything else over the years. It sounds like the Enve tires have decent tread and sidewall protection.

Even if they arent the most aero, or the lowest rolling resistance I could see my self trying them out. For every day riding and for racing some shorter local Tri's these may be good enough. For an A race I probably would be tempted to switch them out for something a little faster.

Re: Enve SES road tires [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 20 16:14

Post #31 of 42 (2383 views)

RowToTri wrote:

Like I said above, the only reason to go hookless is to eliminate a machining step so it is cheaper to manufacture the wheels. This limits the tires you can use on the wheel and makes the wheel dangerous to use with many of the best tires. And of course the wheels are not less expensive despite being cheaper to make.

I often wonder in amazement at the lengths the bike industry will go to solve "problems" resulting from the idea that making a bicycle rim completely out of carbon is a good design choice...(i.e. separate braking surfaces...cough, cough...hookless beads...cough, cough...)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Enve SES road tires [Chemist] [ In reply to ]

Aug 7, 20 6:23

Post #32 of 42 (2246 views)

Interesting how close the Mavic tires are (in rolling resistance) to the Enve tires. Aren't they still under the same parent company? Does Tufo make Mavic tires?

I'm VERY excited about these enve tires. Not because i want to ride them, but because I hope all my competitors pick them. Hopefully all the Enve sponsored riders will be on them. And hopefully they also release some gravel tires by Tufo.

Re: Enve SES road tires [rob_bell] [ In reply to ]

Aug 7, 20 8:20

Post #33 of 42 (2221 views)

rob_bell wrote:

Interesting how close the Mavic tires are (in rolling resistance) to the Enve tires. Aren't they still under the same parent company? Does Tufo make Mavic tires?

I'm VERY excited about these enve tires. Not because i want to ride them, but because I hope all my competitors pick them. Hopefully all the Enve sponsored riders will be on them. And hopefully they also release some gravel tires by Tufo.

IIRC, Tufo made the Mavic tubular tires, but I thought the clinchers were made by Hutchinson?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Enve SES road tires [RichardL] [ In reply to ]

Aug 7, 20 8:30

Post #34 of 42 (2214 views)

RichardL wrote:

Historically Tufo made some of the slowest tires that ever existed. I'm surprised ENVE didn't pair up with Vittoria, Michelin, or Conti.

And then price said tires at $75/£70 each.

Its a pretty crowded market, I presume these will be shipped with their wheels like Mavic.

I'm not convinced they'll get custom from current non Enve owners on Conti, Schwalbe, Vittoria etc

Re: Enve SES road tires [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Aug 7, 20 8:55

Post #35 of 42 (2196 views)

Tom A. wrote:

I often wonder in amazement at the lengths the bike industry will go to solve "problems" resulting from the idea that making a bicycle rim completely out of carbon is a good design choice...(i.e. separate braking surfaces...cough, cough...hookless beads...cough, cough...)

I think we helped the bike industry there. We overwhelmingly picked carbon all-carbon rims. Once Zipp came out with the original Firecrest, it was off to the races. There's still HED and a few others. But I don't think this is one that the bike industry shoved down on us, like press fit bottom brackets or (now) hookless rims. We wanted all carbon.

Re: Enve SES road tires [Chemist] [ In reply to ]

Aug 7, 20 11:08

Post #36 of 42 (2165 views)

Hey all,

I wanted to chime in quickly. As a Enve sponsored rider I was given a pair of the tires and have been riding them for around a month. I was previously riding on GP5000 and I have to say I have been impressed with the Enve tires particularly as a everyday riding tire. They feel fast, durable, and do well on flats and mountainous terrain. They also seem to be lasting longer than the GP5000. I haven't done any onroad testing to confirm differences in speed but so far I would say they feel similar.

Sam Long
AKA The BigUnit
IG: @samgolong

Re: Enve SES road tires [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Aug 7, 20 11:24

Post #37 of 42 (2156 views)

Tom A. wrote:

rob_bell wrote:

Interesting how close the Mavic tires are (in rolling resistance) to the Enve tires. Aren't they still under the same parent company? Does Tufo make Mavic tires?

I'm VERY excited about these enve tires. Not because i want to ride them, but because I hope all my competitors pick them. Hopefully all the Enve sponsored riders will be on them. And hopefully they also release some gravel tires by Tufo.

IIRC, Tufo made the Mavic tubular tires, but I thought the clinchers were made by Hutchinson?

I can confirm that their clinchers are made by Hutchinson. No idea why Enve didn't go to Hutchinson. Their "ElevenStorm" compound is reasonably fast.

Re: Enve SES road tires [Sam(go) Long] [ In reply to ]

Aug 7, 20 11:42

Post #38 of 42 (2148 views)

Hey Sam -

You're going to find some tire super-nerds in here to whom performance differences that definitely cannot be felt by the rider are taken very seriously :)

As for durability, I doubt any of us have as stringent a demand for mileage out of our tires as you....

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: Enve SES road tires [trail] [ In reply to ]

Aug 8, 20 7:37

Post #39 of 42 (2081 views)

trail wrote:

Tom A. wrote:

I often wonder in amazement at the lengths the bike industry will go to solve "problems" resulting from the idea that making a bicycle rim completely out of carbon is a good design choice...(i.e. separate braking surfaces...cough, cough...hookless beads...cough, cough...)

I think we helped the bike industry there. We overwhelmingly picked carbon all-carbon rims. Once Zipp came out with the original Firecrest, it was off to the races. There's still HED and a few others. But I don't think this is one that the bike industry shoved down on us, like press fit bottom brackets or (now) hookless rims. We wanted all carbon.

Well...apparently Henry Ford might have said, "If I had asked the people what they wanted, they would've said 'a faster horse' "

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Enve SES road tires [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Aug 8, 20 7:51

Post #40 of 42 (2075 views)

Tom A. wrote:

Well...apparently Henry Ford might have said, "If I had asked the people what they wanted, they would've said 'a faster horse' "

Except old-school rims are the horse in this case.

Re: Enve SES road tires [trail] [ In reply to ]

Aug 8, 20 8:41

Post #41 of 42 (2064 views)

trail wrote:

Tom A. wrote:

Well...apparently Henry Ford might have said, "If I had asked the people what they wanted, they would've said 'a faster horse' "

Except old-school rims are the horse in this case.

Ummm...just above you said it was the all carbon rims, no?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Enve SES road tires [Sam(go) Long] [ In reply to ]

Aug 8, 20 11:59

Post #42 of 42 (2027 views)

Sam(go) Long wrote:

Hey all,

I wanted to chime in quickly. As a Enve sponsored rider I was given a pair of the tires and have been riding them for around a month. I was previously riding on GP5000 and I have to say I have been impressed with the Enve tires particularly as a everyday riding tire. They feel fast, durable, and do well on flats and mountainous terrain. They also seem to be lasting longer than the GP5000. I haven't done any onroad testing to confirm differences in speed but so far I would say they feel similar.

Are you going to race on them??

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