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Renting while Black
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Re: Renting while Black [Tri2gohard] [ In reply to ]
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Can we not post links that are behind paywalls? Or at least give a summary of the article?
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Re: Renting while Black [orphious] [ In reply to ]
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Surprisingly people with black sounding names are less likely to be offered accom than people with "non black" sounding names

I'm paraphrasing but it describes overt discrimination
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Re: Renting while Black [Tri2gohard] [ In reply to ]
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The article/ study didn't report on the race of the agents (so far as I can tell). This leaves me wondering if the race of the agent has an impact on the result of the interaction. I also wonder at the experience level of the agents (ex: Are they discriminatory on day one or is it a learned behavior developed over time? <-- Not justifying, just wondering.)






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Re: Renting while Black [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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There’s a financial motivation behind the divergence in behavior between high, mid, and low-priced multi family housing. In a downturn, it’s hard to find renters for high-end multi family so owners tend to give concessions to retain renters. With low-end MF there’s always demand because people trade down so the incentive is to evict to get a paying renter.
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Re: Renting while Black [orphious] [ In reply to ]
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orphious wrote:
Can we not post links that are behind paywalls? Or at least give a summary of the article?

Sorry about that. I clicked through Twitter and never ran into a paywall. I just went to it again from my office desktop and after refreshing was able to read it. The original article is best as you can read the whole study which is at the conclusion.

Link:

A Study Found Overwhelming Evidence Black Renters Experience Discrimination in Boston

https://www.bostonmagazine.com/...ters-discrimination/

From this article:

The study lays bare evidence that housing discrimination is a deeply ingrained issue in Boston, and one that needs immediate attention. “Segregation, discrimination, and killings of unarmed Black people are not problems from our past, but ongoing interconnected actions that must be addressed,” the study states. “Data from this study reveal that housing discriminating is still occurring at alarmingly high rates in Greater Boston."
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Re: Renting while Black [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
Surprisingly people with black sounding names are less likely to be offered accom than people with "non black" sounding names

I'm paraphrasing but it describes overt discrimination

From the original article:

"Researchers expected “outrageously high” discrimination in Boston, said Catherine LaRaia, director of investigations and outreach at the law school’s Housing Discrimination Testing Program, which conducted the study. But they were flabbergasted, she said, by what they uncovered."
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Re: Renting while Black [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
Surprisingly people with black sounding names are less likely to be offered accom than people with "non black" sounding names

I'm paraphrasing but it describes overt discrimination
Same story, different day.


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Re: Renting while Black [Tri2gohard] [ In reply to ]
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Where are all of the folks who said we were past all this? The personal responsibility crew? Maybe we can talk about violence in Chicago? There has to be some other explanation besides race here, right...?

I've been hearing stuff like this from Black people for 25+ years. Glad I had the good sense to believe them.
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Re: Renting while Black [Tri2gohard] [ In reply to ]
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Tri2gohard wrote:
Where are all of the folks who said we were past all this? The personal responsibility crew? Maybe we can talk about violence in Chicago? There has to be some other explanation besides race here, right...?

I've been hearing stuff like this from Black people for 25+ years. Glad I had the good sense to believe them.

Nobody ever said we were “past this.” Weve said its gotten significantly better, but we also acknowledged racism still exists. So we’re not going to get ip in arms over a study that shows something we already believe to exist, that is also horrible.

The study also found that 90% of all voucher holders experienced discrimination. 18% of black voucher holders were able to see an apt, whereas only 12% of white voucher holders were able to see an apt. Theres a lot that can be taken away from this one isolated study. Not all of it surprising in the least.
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Re: Renting while Black [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Nobody ever said we were “past this.” Weve said its gotten significantly better, but we also acknowledged racism still exists. So we’re not going to get ip in arms over a study that shows something we already believe to exist, that is also horrible.

The nature of the racism in this article is structural, there was quite a bit of debate regarding whether or not structural racism actually exists.

Structural Racism Definition: Structural Racism in the U.S. is the normalization and legitimization of an array of dynamics – historical, cultural, institutional and interpersonal – that routinely advantage whites while producing cumulative and chronic adverse outcomes for people of color. It is a system of hierarchy and inequity, primarily characterized by white supremacy – the preferential treatment, privilege and power for white people at the expense of Black, Latino, Asian, Pacific Islander, Native American, Arab and other racially oppressed people.

Certainly seems to me that the rental system in Boston fits the description.
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Re: Renting while Black [Tri2gohard] [ In reply to ]
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Tri2gohard wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
Nobody ever said we were “past this.” Weve said its gotten significantly better, but we also acknowledged racism still exists. So we’re not going to get ip in arms over a study that shows something we already believe to exist, that is also horrible.

The nature of the racism in this article is structural, there was quite a bit of debate regarding whether or not structural racism actually exists.

Structural Racism Definition: Structural Racism in the U.S. is the normalization and legitimization of an array of dynamics – historical, cultural, institutional and interpersonal – that routinely advantage whites while producing cumulative and chronic adverse outcomes for people of color. It is a system of hierarchy and inequity, primarily characterized by white supremacy – the preferential treatment, privilege and power for white people at the expense of Black, Latino, Asian, Pacific Islander, Native American, Arab and other racially oppressed people.

Certainly seems to me that the rental system in Boston fits the description.

Fair argument. And I’ll indulge. Lets say what you proposed is true. What do you believe to be a solution to the problem of structural racism in this housing issue?

Also, if we’re using this study, can we claim that the boston housing market is structurally prejudiced against whites with vouchers as well?
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Re: Renting while Black [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Fair argument. And I’ll indulge. Lets say what you proposed is true. What do you believe to be a solution to the problem of structural racism in this housing issue?

Also, if we’re using this study, can we claim that the boston housing market is structurally prejudiced against whites with vouchers as well?

Let's start with the second premise first. You can absolutely claim that it is prejudiced against Whites with vouchers when compared to Blacks with vouchers. The problem is that I did not see where they compared the two values (18% vs 12%) for statistical significance. The conclusion they pitched is that anyone with a voucher(aka a poor person) is going to be mistreated and I will agree 100% with that. Poverty is what underpins so much of what is going on when it comes to race in this country. For reasons we have discussed in other threads, for most of our history Black=Poor. But the difference in the populations with vouchers BV vsWV is not lost on me and bears further investigation.

I think the solution to the problem in not just this case but in many cases is first to bring attention to the matter. I actually don't think these outcomes are always based on overt, cross burning, lynching type racism. I think so much of this stuff is just "the way it has always been", that people aren't aware of what they are doing individually or of the impact of what they are doing. I don't have a background in real estate, but I like brainstorming.

First, I would talk the Real Estate bigwigs. Not the developers but the orgs that do most of this rental work. I would ask them if they thought these findings made them look good or bad and offer to help them avoid bad press. Without them knowing, I would then duplicate this study on a smaller scale in 25 different markets. I would do it in communities that are all different types of backgrounds. Maybe I would do this before I ever approached them. Then I would figure out if this deal in Boston was a one off or a pattern. Once you get your answer(let's assume it is a pattern), go to the Real Estate School people(I have no idea who this is) and tell them they have work to do on their CE and Teaching Curriculum for new agents or the $$$ may not flow so easily into their organizations(there must be government money or subsidy coming in). Also, I still have the threat of bad press. Intermittently perform random surveillance in areas in a monitoring effort and laud their improvements, yielding good press. The unfortunate part of this brainstorm is there would have to be interplay between the Gov't and the private sector. Our government is the home of bureaucracy and that is cause for concern.

It's late and I'm rambling. TLDR: Negative outcomes need not have negative intent. Many people don't want to be racist, but contribute to unequal outcomes. Identify, measure, rehab, monitor, laud. And tomorrow I'll make sure I follow up with you up in the day before I get into the craft beer.
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Re: Renting while Black [Tri2gohard] [ In reply to ]
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Tri2gohard wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
Fair argument. And I’ll indulge. Lets say what you proposed is true. What do you believe to be a solution to the problem of structural racism in this housing issue?

Also, if we’re using this study, can we claim that the boston housing market is structurally prejudiced against whites with vouchers as well?


Let's start with the second premise first. You can absolutely claim that it is prejudiced against Whites with vouchers when compared to Blacks with vouchers. The problem is that I did not see where they compared the two values (18% vs 12%) for statistical significance. The conclusion they pitched is that anyone with a voucher(aka a poor person) is going to be mistreated and I will agree 100% with that. Poverty is what underpins so much of what is going on when it comes to race in this country. For reasons we have discussed in other threads, for most of our history Black=Poor. But the difference in the populations with vouchers BV vsWV is not lost on me and bears further investigation.

I think the solution to the problem in not just this case but in many cases is first to bring attention to the matter. I actually don't think these outcomes are always based on overt, cross burning, lynching type racism. I think so much of this stuff is just "the way it has always been", that people aren't aware of what they are doing individually or of the impact of what they are doing. I don't have a background in real estate, but I like brainstorming.

First, I would talk the Real Estate bigwigs. Not the developers but the orgs that do most of this rental work. I would ask them if they thought these findings made them look good or bad and offer to help them avoid bad press. Without them knowing, I would then duplicate this study on a smaller scale in 25 different markets. I would do it in communities that are all different types of backgrounds. Maybe I would do this before I ever approached them. Then I would figure out if this deal in Boston was a one off or a pattern. Once you get your answer(let's assume it is a pattern), go to the Real Estate School people(I have no idea who this is) and tell them they have work to do on their CE and Teaching Curriculum for new agents or the $$$ may not flow so easily into their organizations(there must be government money or subsidy coming in). Also, I still have the threat of bad press. Intermittently perform random surveillance in areas in a monitoring effort and laud their improvements, yielding good press. The unfortunate part of this brainstorm is there would have to be interplay between the Gov't and the private sector. Our government is the home of bureaucracy and that is cause for concern.

It's late and I'm rambling. TLDR: Negative outcomes need not have negative intent. Many people don't want to be racist, but contribute to unequal outcomes. Identify, measure, rehab, monitor, laud. And tomorrow I'll make sure I follow up with you up in the day before I get into the craft beer.

This is a great response and it didn't go where I thought it would. I actually like those ideas, a lot. I was going to use the same excuse that its late and my brain isn't working nearly as well as it should, so I'll try my best. At least you have craft beer waiting tomorrow! Although a strong argument can be made that I can drink and get the house projects done at the same time, should be interesting.

I'm with you completely on bringing attention to the matter. I think shaming can be an effective way to get racist assholes to curl up in their corners and keep to themselves. Thats fine, I don't want them out here anyway if thats their M.O. You're also right with replicating the study in multiple markets. Or even in that same market in different areas (I have to read it more). I'm not arguing that it happened, and I'm not surprised. Its interesting you bring up the pre-conceived notions. It could very well be the "black = poor" notion that makes some landlords skittish. And the fact that almost all voucher holders experienced prejudice supports that its a strong argument regarding getting paid vs race. Or maybe the "lifestyle" or anything else to do with "being poor."

The rest of your argument again makes great sense, but it still addresses the fact that its the people that need to change. Its not the systems in place. In the first few pages of the study it says that there are federal guidelines in place (and have been for decades) to try and prevent discriminatory practices against race and vouchers when it comes to housing. We can have the best system in place, but if the person calling the shots is going to be biased, its not what the system has taught, its what the person is trying to do. And our system (and media) is pretty good about bringing attention to the matter. Hell, the media doesn't miss a beat with a good race issue.

When it comes to real estate, I'd be interested to see stats in certain areas on the amount of people defaulting on rent payments. Or evictions due to non-payment. Could this be a possible reason for landlords to not want to house vouchers? Is there a higher percentage of default or late payments or damage with certain populations in certain areas? This is data I'd like to see also, not just "who."

A lot of VRBO places don't want college parties or bachelor parties. A lot of landlords in certain areas don't want to rent to younger students for fear of damage. We have a lot of colleges around us and I know a number of landlords with multiple properties. Some don't want to rent to girls because they're messy and it costs a shitload of money every year on plumbing etc. Or ones that don't want to rent to sports teams bc of the parties and damage.

Hell, even a patient of mine has a couple of buildings in NYC and he said its a nightmare. He actually said there are populations of people who just take advantage and know how to scheme the system. With vouchers, he said they continuously break shit even after he fixes it so they can claim he is not up keeping the housing, and then they don't have to pay that month. He is not allowed to take pictures of repairs he makes. But his plumber keeps having to fix the SAME pipe every few months that is intentionally broken. He said even the judge at this point is rolling his eyes at the tenant. He said theres more than one. They know how to game the system so they don't have to pay, and in NYC the law is not on the side of the landlords.

So I could absolutely see justified reasons behind landlords picking and choosing based on their history. Is it right or wrong? Well, thats why we're having this conversation.

Have a good night and enjoy those beers tomorrow!
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