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running during bike FTP program
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Could use some advice. Like for most of us, triathlon season is basically cancelled in my area. The next "A" race I expect to train for is Ironman California in Oct 2021 (assuming it still happens). So, given a chance at some focused extended training I recently started a 12 week FTP builder program on the bike. About to start week 5. Program includes 5 days of biking per week, and a couple of light weight/core workouts.

My question is about running (swimming is not happening right now). Should I incorporate some weekly runs to maintain some level of running fitness? If so, how much would be ideal to strike the balance of not totally losing running fitness and maximizing FTP gains? As I'm starting the second month of the biking program, I really feel running is getting neglected -- plus I miss it. But I'd hate to come out of the other end of this program and find that I overdid training and my FTP-building efforts fell flat.

I emailed with a coach at myprocoach (where I've been getting training programs on trainingpeaks) and she discouraged too much running while focusing on such a bike intensive program. She offered to swap me out into a duathlon program. So, that's an option.

Suggestions?

Thanks in advance..
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Re: running during bike FTP program [Vapor Trail] [ In reply to ]
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You're a triathlete, right?

I wouldn't stop running altogether for any kind of FTP gain, unless it was 150w and I could go join the pro tour.
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Re: running during bike FTP program [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
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Current FTP is 242, putting me right at 3 w/kg. Hoping some concentrated efforts during this extended time between events could help me stop bottom-dwelling on Coggan's power chart.

Possible to do both? (run plus make respectable gains in w/kg on the bike?)
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Re: running during bike FTP program [Vapor Trail] [ In reply to ]
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Hard to know without more context or background, but my sense is the answer is yes. Many people make big FTP gains at the same time as continuing to run, including improving run performance. Can't really say whether that's possible based on your FTP builder plan, but in general it should be possible.
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Re: running during bike FTP program [Vapor Trail] [ In reply to ]
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Are you running at all right now? I don't see how running 4x30' or even 4x15' a week very easy (e.g., almost able to do it with your mouth closed and only nose breathing) would compromise your ability to make FTP gains -- and even that little running would go a long way to preventing your run-specific fitness from degrading. Also, if it helps with mental freshness and alleviating workout monotony, you might even do better on the bike with a few easy runs sprinkled in, so long as they remain easy enough to count as active recovery. Add some strides on the run if you feel really good after a week or two and running isn't hurting your ability to hit the bike workouts, but probably don't do any running workouts.

Edit: a side benefit of even a little running is that it will help keep weight off better than cycling alone. So if you care about W/kg and not just W, then you should probably keep doing some running.
Last edited by: twcronin: Jun 1, 20 10:28
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Re: running during bike FTP program [twcronin] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for input all. I'll start adding some Z2 runs to help break the monotony and keep running conditioning from totally tanking.
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Re: running during bike FTP program [Vapor Trail] [ In reply to ]
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I would definitely do some running to keep the ligaments and tendons used to it. Maybe cut your current running volume in half.

Let food be thy medicine...
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Re: running during bike FTP program [Vapor Trail] [ In reply to ]
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I would do some bike focused weeks where all my running was 15-30 min warmup or transition runs before or after my bike sessions or do similar short swims, but most of the week was biking.....flipping it the other way, the next week would be swim and run volume and intensity focused and all my rides were be very short bursts of TTing or intervals off 30 min that would be joined to a run or swim. So week 1 was bike focused with very short and easy runs and swims, week 2 was swim and run volume and intensity with very very short rides. Overall volume between the weeks would be similar in hours. Bike FTP would gradually grow over a few months (third week lighter in all three sports in intensity and volume and more balanced)...then back to the cycle.

I think its more important as a triathlete to jack up watts per kilo, not just FTP. Being lighter will also help aeroness even if top line FTP goes down a bit when you are lighter. Being ligther is just good. If you're running you get a reality check on where your watts per kilo are going, If you're just biking and seeing your watts going up, while your weight goes up, its not that helpful as a triathlete (because I heavier version of yourself pushes more wind, you have to haul that weight up hills and you have to haul it around the run and the extra weight means you generate more heat with an extra layer of insulation that really hurts on the run.
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Re: running during bike FTP program [Vapor Trail] [ In reply to ]
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Just do 4-6 easy 20-30 min runs while you're doing the FTP builder.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: running during bike FTP program [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for all the advice.

Went out yesterday for first run in over 4 weeks. Felt great to get out there.

I'm surprised at the frequency of weekly runs everyone is recommending. Well beyond what I've been used to when training for full or half IM races, where I typically average 2 runs/week, sometimes 3 if I add a brick. But it makes me wonder what I'm missing out on. I've found myself often on the brink of injury with running over the years and as a response have been conservative with my running frequency.

Perhaps I'm getting it backwards. Would slowly increasing weekly run frequency (mostly Z2 efforts) help make the injury-prone soft tissues more resilient?

The other issue is how to fit it all in. I'm 50, family with two kids, full-time job. I do what I can to get in weekday workouts done in AM before work. So, it's hard to imagine biking 4-5 times per week and running 4-6 times per week (never mind adding back in the swim and doing some basic conditioning/core workouts). In theory, those 20 minute runs could be added on to weekday bike rides.
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Re: running during bike FTP program [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I would do some bike focused weeks where all my running was 15-30 min warmup or transition runs before or after my bike sessions or do similar short swims, but most of the week was biking.....flipping it the other way, the next week would be swim and run volume and intensity focused and all my rides were be very short bursts of TTing or intervals off 30 min that would be joined to a run or swim. So week 1 was bike focused with very short and easy runs and swims, week 2 was swim and run volume and intensity with very very short rides. Overall volume between the weeks would be similar in hours. Bike FTP would gradually grow over a few months (third week lighter in all three sports in intensity and volume and more balanced)...then back to the cycle.

I think its more important as a triathlete to jack up watts per kilo, not just FTP. Being lighter will also help aeroness even if top line FTP goes down a bit when you are lighter. Being ligther is just good. If you're running you get a reality check on where your watts per kilo are going, If you're just biking and seeing your watts going up, while your weight goes up, its not that helpful as a triathlete (because I heavier version of yourself pushes more wind, you have to haul that weight up hills and you have to haul it around the run and the extra weight means you generate more heat with an extra layer of insulation that really hurts on the run.

Quoting as this is good.

I've been doing what was quoted above a bit on bike/run only as a cyclist. For easy runs I pretty much nose breath to keep the pace low and easy so I can nail the bike.

My overall volume on bike is now less, with more run. I don't have bike races right now. Running helps me round out and optimize my aerobic engine. The weeks focused on bike inches up the power.

I've gained probably 20w in the TT bike doing this, while losing about 1min/mile on average run pace from this time last year.

I'm also a big believer in punching a smaller hole in the air by being smaller and more flexible. No good holding 300w for an hour if your CdA is shit. That'd be a colossal waste of energy.

Also, indoors........don't cheat the position on the bike. Hold it. Sure, rest maybe sat up........but hold it otherwise.
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Re: running during bike FTP program [Vapor Trail] [ In reply to ]
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Vapor Trail wrote:

I'm surprised at the frequency of weekly runs everyone is recommending. Well beyond what I've been used to when training for full or half IM races, where I typically average 2 runs/week, sometimes 3 if I add a brick. But it makes me wonder what I'm missing out on. I've found myself often on the brink of injury with running over the years and as a response have been conservative with my running frequency.

Perhaps I'm getting it backwards..

Increase frequency to build duration & volume.

Here is my other advice which no one really wants to hear, at least judging from the 2-4 athletes/yr that approach me for coaching then tell me to bugger off after telling them this:

If you're really a time pressed, time limited person, (40-50hr wk job, kids, family, other outside commitments, have to train only in the morning before work and be home by 10-11am on weekends) you will be a more engaged spouse, parent & athlete if you focused your racing on the local/regional sprint/oly scene and doing some half's where you can bring the family along for a 3-4d mini vacation than trying to do an IM

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: running during bike FTP program [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Completely agree. Did this after we had our daughter and it made training much more realistic within my life and thus much more fun.
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Re: running during bike FTP program [Vapor Trail] [ In reply to ]
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Vapor Trail wrote:
Thanks for all the advice.
I'm surprised at the frequency of weekly runs everyone is recommending. Well beyond what I've been used to when training for full or half IM races, where I typically average 2 runs/week, sometimes 3 if I add a brick. But it makes me wonder what I'm missing out on. I've found myself often on the brink of injury with running over the years and as a response have been conservative with my running frequency.

Perhaps I'm getting it backwards. Would slowly increasing weekly run frequency (mostly Z2 efforts) help make the injury-prone soft tissues more resilient?

Yeah, you're getting it backwards -- for most people, increasing running frequency while holding volume constant (i.e., spreading 24 miles over 6 runs instead of 3) will lead to much lower risk of injury. This is part of the whole idea of 100/100 -- you CAN actually do short runs every day and not get injured, and it helps you build to longer runs and more volume which make you a much better runner. This is also part of why serious runners run twice a day many days -- adding a second 3-4 mile run to a day gives much less injury risk than tacking 3-4 miles on to the end of another run.

I remember reading some advice for beginning runners years ago: "Run easier than you think you should, less far than you think you should, and more often than you think you should." I was not experienced enough at the time to know how wise this was!

Regarding your other question about how to fit these in: yes, just tack on to the beginning or end of a bike ride -- the run can count as warmup or cooldown for a hard bike effort if you are time-pressed.
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Re: running during bike FTP program [Vapor Trail] [ In reply to ]
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I havent been in triathlon for long and I know How you feel. Before “training” for triathlon I did some sporadic cycling and running, But rarely at the same time. I focused on cycling, realised that my running would be of very much quality in the beginning. So basically, i just went for 4-6k recovery run every day (and thats really slow) for 3-4 weeks, then added a long run for some weeks, then a threshold/tempo run and finally intervals. It’s just adapting to the workload slowly
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