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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
No. Neither pool we swim out of has opened. The community pool said they would update mid May on opening up. The high school pool will probably be longer before it opens. Hope you are doing well.

Tim

I see, thanks for your update. I am doing just fine thanks. I sure hope the pools here in Knoxville open soon but I am taking this opportunity to do some additional strength training. I think you're abso right on aerobic fitness being low on the list of requirements for fast distance swimming, as you gotta have that basic strength first. I'm doing lots of pull-ups, push-ups, dips, and sit-ups, 3 days per week. I found a set of pull-up bars at our local high school Navy Jr ROTC unit's compound, which are very convenient for me to use. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
No. Neither pool we swim out of has opened. The community pool said they would update mid May on opening up. The high school pool will probably be longer before it opens.

Hope you are doing well.

Tim

Do you forsee a lag on pools opening up in Texas after the state opens and when pools open, will there be a zillion layers of guidelines/regulations/limitations or will it be back to business as usual at pools. We are having this discussion at Masters Swimming Ontario and expecting Masters clubs will be quite limited initially. We need all the limitations broken through by kids programs and seniors aquafit programs, if masters are going to be able to swim 6 per lane etc. We can't physically distance and run masters swims, so its going to need to be waived for kids and seniors at some point to allow for masters to slide through under the same clauses.
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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After 56 days since swimming pools lock down, we were cleared for open water swimming; today I swam 1,5 miles at a pace 10-12 seconds per 100m slower than my usual. In the past 8 week I did a mix of strength training with stretch cords, chin up bar, dumb bells and body weight, 3 times a week; I think it helped keeping me afloat
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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There’s at least a two week lag from the opening which was May 1 and the earliest the pools would open - mid-May. We’ll see what it looks like in a couple weeks. Personally, I think Texas probably opened too soon. The state ranks near the bottom in terms of testing, but is the 2nd most populous state in the US.

I put together some ideas before the initial shut down on how to run workouts. We usually swim in a 6 lane 25 yard outdoor pool. The plan was two people per lane, one person on each end of the pool in each lane and run the workout from both ends. It limits the workouts to 12 people but it solves a lot of the social distancing concerns. USA Swimming sent out a guide the other day on how to run workouts and it was similar.

But anyway you look at it we are in uncharted waters and whatever we do we should keep in mind to err on the side of the health and safety of our athletes.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [jollyroger88] [ In reply to ]
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jollyroger88 wrote:
After 56 days since swimming pools lock down, we were cleared for open water swimming; today I swam 1,5 miles at a pace 10-12 seconds per 100m slower than my usual. In the past 8 week I did a mix of strength training with stretch cords, chin up bar, dumb bells and body weight, 3 times a week; I think it helped keeping me afloat

Ya, no doubt the dry-land workouts help. If our pools don't open by 1 June, I'll prob jump in and swim OW until the pools reopen.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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For using the old bike trainer........anyone have better photos or info for the return spring or whatever for using one as a rower?

I have an old Fluid 2 and trainer wheel sitting around.

If there's a link to a topic or some photos, let me know. I'd be down to MacGyver something up for fun.

Shoot, with that you could even put a wheel speed sensor on it and go Zwifting!
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [jollyroger88] [ In reply to ]
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jollyroger88 wrote:
After 56 days since swimming pools lock down, we were cleared for open water swimming; today I swam 1,5 miles at a pace 10-12 seconds per 100m slower than my usual. In the past 8 week I did a mix of strength training with stretch cords, chin up bar, dumb bells and body weight, 3 times a week; I think it helped keeping me afloat

I've been Vasa only for 8 weeks. I'm eager to see what kind of progress I've made, if any. I've certainly gotten used to the convenience of hitting the Vasa in the basement...

While I can see you were swimming a slightly slower pace than usual, once you get your sea legs back do you feel like you made any progress being out of the water, or more like just maintained?
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [Tri2gohard] [ In reply to ]
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Tri2gohard wrote:
jollyroger88 wrote:
After 56 days since swimming pools lock down, we were cleared for open water swimming; today I swam 1,5 miles at a pace 10-12 seconds per 100m slower than my usual. In the past 8 week I did a mix of strength training with stretch cords, chin up bar, dumb bells and body weight, 3 times a week; I think it helped keeping me afloat


I've been Vasa only for 8 weeks. I'm eager to see what kind of progress I've made, if any. I've certainly gotten used to the convenience of hitting the Vasa in the basement...

While I can see you were swimming a slightly slower pace than usual, once you get your sea legs back do you feel like you made any progress being out of the water, or more like just maintained?
.

I'll jump in here, having used my Vasa a lot through various situations.

For me, the Vasa alone (no pool for like 2 months) does NOT get me faster in the water, meaning getting me to hit faster pool paces than I ever have. Sorry, I said it. So forget about jumping into the pool and throwing down some huge PRs. Not gonna happen.

It's just reality that the Vasa mimics the power phase of the stroke, but obviously doesn't help with body position, hydrodynamics, breathing, timing, etc. all of which are crucial skills to swim faster. You obviously cannot learn to swim if you don't know how to and just use a Vasa crazy hard for a year. You will still nearly drown. Similarly, all that muscular endurance in the pull you develop on the Vasa will be hidden if you do not have the technique, stroke timing, or drag reduction to let it express itself.

Now the upside - the Vasa really does work for what it does. It allows you to maintain and even improve the power phase of your pull, which is your single biggest determinant of speed once you're past raw beginner level. So if you've got all that power, it's just a matter of getting the rest of the swim pieces to catch up. For a half-decent tri swimmer, that may take only a few pool swims, or only a matter of weeks. I actually strongly suspect that the better swimmer you are, the more effective the Vasa will be, as you will have already developed the other limiters (which come back a lot faster than gaining more pull power.)

And if you were a pretty decent tri swimmer prior to the lockdown, I'd expect to lose very little if you've been good about using the Vasa. I've taken 2 months completely out of water on Vasa due to local pool shutdowns - the first goaround without Vasa I lost so much that it took nearly 4 months to even get back to that level. I bought the Vasa shortly after that and I've lost very little even after 2 months of nothing but Vasa.

In my experience, best-use case is doing the right mix of pool swimming + Vasa erg, where the erg helps you amp up that crucial power phase of the stroke, and the pool gives you enough to get the rest of the stroke to match it. I absolutely swim muy fastest and best when my combined Vasa+pool swimming is on point - I've tried going all pool but it doesn't quite match for me, likely because the time costs of going to the pool are so huge that I can get 2x the time on the Vasa in comparison. Volume counts!

Let us know how it goes, though!
Last edited by: lightheir: May 8, 20 20:07
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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One thing you could add for someone like you (or at a higher caliber, Sam Gyde), is that once you have basic body position down and timing for breathing, then the Erg will help the propulsion phase and most so in wetsuit legal races.

I would use this approach for years, XC skiing like crazy in the winter and having very competitive swims 4-6 weeks later at spring races down south. I had many years where I did not swim at all. Just skied and started swimming only 4-6 weeks out.

The wetsuit is a great equalizer if you have basic body position, good cardio, timing of breathing and stong pull. The Vasa erg will take care of that strong pull and make you competitive enough in a time limited way in wetsuit legal events.
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Totally agree. The wetsuit assists which remove a lot of the limiters of body buoyancy and leg position, make OWS an even more pull-dependent activity so it more heavily rewards people with stronger pulls even if the rest isn't as strong.

I was actually the reverse of that pre-Vasa - good body position, good timing, but couldn't pull hard. Not enough swim volume for me without the erg. Tellingly, I'd go no faster with a PB or wetsuit in the pool (drove me nuts - I'd get dropped in my masters lane the moment the PBs came out so I'd go without!) and paddles also gave no speed advantage.

Since getting the erg though, I've flip flopped. Now my arm muscular endurance is not limiting, and I am a lot faster with paddles (and I can use paddles the whole workout, hard), and also faster with PB/wetsuit. It was weird for me to experience the flip flop - I checked my times in the pool with the toys and was like ?WTF? since it was totally backwards from what I was used to.
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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MrRabbit wrote:
jollyroger88 wrote:
MrTri123 wrote:
jmkizer wrote:
Every year I look at a swim erg and every year I decide that it's not in the budget. For the right price, I'd definitely own one.


What is the right price for you?


500$ for a "smart" one (with electronics, computer, connectivity etc.) and 250$ for a "dumb" one (no electronics); that is 20% more expensive than average rowers (you get a smart one for 400$ or even less), but yet reasonable


I got a Vasa trainer when this all started and I love it, but I agree it was a bit expensive. From what I've seen though the "Total Gym" machine looks really similar and falls within your price range. I can't speak from experience on it though.

How much do people spend on smart trainers and C2 machines? That would be your real answer to this question.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [Tri2gohard] [ In reply to ]
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I can end the suspense for you. Vasa is not a replacement for swimming in the pool. You won’t have gotten faster. More than likely you’ll be slower than when you left the pool. It doesn’t even mimic the stroke since you can’t rotate along the long axis of your body. The most important thing to develop for faster more efficient swimming is feel for the water. And if you aren’t in the water you are losing “feel.”

I could teach you how to meditate where you would feel better and swim faster than if you did the VASA.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
Last edited by: SnappingT: May 10, 20 6:07
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Will do!
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
One thing you could add for someone like you (or at a higher caliber, Sam Gyde), is that once you have basic body position down and timing for breathing, then the Erg will help the propulsion phase and most so in wetsuit legal races.

I would use this approach for years, XC skiing like crazy in the winter and having very competitive swims 4-6 weeks later at spring races down south. I had many years where I did not swim at all. Just skied and started swimming only 4-6 weeks out.

The wetsuit is a great equalizer if you have basic body position, good cardio, timing of breathing and stong pull. The Vasa erg will take care of that strong pull and make you competitive enough in a time limited way in wetsuit legal events.

Thanks Dev. My year was supposed to be a Sprint and an Oly, looking to make the jump to full distance in 2021. I'll have to keep in mind the role of the wetsuit in selecting the race. Maybe with some luck and some consistent effort I won't need it(as much).

Guess I'll just keep Vasa-ing until I can do otherwise.
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
I can end the suspense for you. Vasa is not a replacement for swimming in the pool. You won’t have gotten faster. More than likely you’ll be slower than when you left the pool. It doesn’t even mimic the stroke since you can’t rotate along the long axis of your body. The most important thing to develop for faster more efficient swimming is feel for the water. And if you aren’t in the water you are losing “feel.”

I could teach you how to meditate where you would feel better and swim faster than if you did the VASA.

Tim

I appreciate the straight talk, helps set expectations. Here's hoping the pools can open(safely) soon...
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [Tri2gohard] [ In reply to ]
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As others said, dry land training alone isn't going to make you any faster, but at least will allow to catch up a lot earlier with your pre-lockdown swimming fitness. Possibly the right mix of pool time and vasa training could actually boost your swimming
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Re: Why swimming machines/ergometers aren't a thing? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
I can end the suspense for you. Vasa is not a replacement for swimming in the pool. You won’t have gotten faster. More than likely you’ll be slower than when you left the pool. It doesn’t even mimic the stroke since you can’t rotate along the long axis of your body. The most important thing to develop for faster more efficient swimming is feel for the water. And if you aren’t in the water you are losing “feel.”

I could teach you how to meditate where you would feel better and swim faster than if you did the VASA.

Tim

"I can end the suspense for you" made me ROFL!!! Somehow I missed the last part of this thread back in May. While dry-land workouts can help build swim-specific strength, dry-land training is simply a supplement. Actual, real world, in the water swimming, on the pace clock, is absolutely the only way to get faster. If it were otherwise, Phelps et al would be doing 4 hr/day of dry-land and 1 hr of actual swimming, vs they actually do the reverse. As a former Oly Trials lane mate of mine said during the COVID pool closures, "there's just no substitute for putting in the yards."


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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