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dialing down training to protect immune system?
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Is no one doing this?!

I've seen many comments on different threads about how it's a good time to get some hard training in. Lots of time to work on zwift. etc
Even one about having swimmers lungs protecting you from the effects of the virus.

I would have thought the precautionary option would be to maximise health at this point, not performance.

Look after yourselves.
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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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i agree. Low zone solo rides for this older guy are the plan for now. Finishing a Zwift race or training ride on all fours doesn't seem like the thing for a responsible citizen to do right now. Putting one's self and/or others in an ICU is downright selfish IMO. Be part of the solution, not the problem.
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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [MrB] [ In reply to ]
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+2 A good dose of low intensity "exercise". Save the "training" when there is light at the end of the tunnel (and it's been verified by someone other than POTUS that it's not a train).
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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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Turning 61 this weekend. I'm dialing back to 40 mpw week running, all moderate pace. No swim or bike. About a 20% reduction from my normal training load. No hard sessions. If I was 20 or 40 I'd probably remain at normal training load during the pandemic as long as I was healthy, but wouldn't increase it. I don't see an issue with an occasional short race at this time if you get appropriate rest before and after. I think a short race might even boost the immune system.

I have a couple of weeks of vacation I need to use by late June, so I'm hoping the virus will subside by that time so at least I can do a staycation where I feel it's safe to push the training load past normal when all I'm doing is training and resting at home, but that is probably optimistic at this point.
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Mar 25, 20 13:45
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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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Slightly different as in New Zealand we are at the end of the season, but the week of the first case in NZ my coach emailed around to say he was doing exactly that for all of his coached athletes. Now this looked different for everyone, but our group sessions were dialled back and my programme certainly is avoiding the absolute killer sessions.

Now we're all in isolation it may change, but will see when TP is updated next week.
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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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 No. Holding constant, but prioritizing sleep.
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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting response, thanks.

There are least two well known coaches in the UK who are pulling training programmes and replacing them with a low intensity maintenance programme. In my younger days I would have said pfffff but as a 42 year old with a previous lung problem (it doesn't put me on the UK vulnerable list but even so....) I'm not going to risk it.

I'd suggest others do the same but that's just my keyboard warrior view :-)
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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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Mark Lemmon wrote:
Turning 61 this weekend. I'm dialing back to 40 mpw week running, all moderate pace. About a 20% reduction from my normal training load. No hard sessions. If I was 20 or 40 I'd probably remain at normal training load during the pandemic as long as I was healthy, but wouldn't increase it. I don't see an issue with an occasional short race at this time if you get appropriate rest before and after. I think a short race might even boost the immune system.

I have a couple of weeks of vacation I need to use by late June, so I'm hoping the virus will subside by that time so at least I can do a staycation where I feel it's safe to push the training load past normal when all I'm doing is training and resting at home, but that is probably optimistic at this point.

High intensity aerobic efforts actually weakens the immune system for at least two hours afterwards, so this would affect even the younger folks.

I personally have had 3 (or maybe 4) episodes of upper respiratory discomfort since mid February. One was a cold, and I'm not sure about the others (could just be allergies). After the first episode my 20-min was still at 300 W. Right now, i'd be happy if it were still above 270 W. Really haven't ridden that much since, and when I do resume, I'll make sure not to get HR over upper end of Z3. Otoh, I think strength exercise elicits additional testosterone production and may actually boost the immune system (I think there are peer-reviewed articles stating this, but can't recall where), so I'll be doing more of those.
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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [TJ56] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. I was also confused by all these posts about people becoming fitter than ever during this time. Glad to hear I'm not alone. When I'm at my fittest, I also feel like I'm on the verge of being sick. Now more than ever is the time to stay healthy! Lots of low-hr, long zone 2 work now, then build and peak again when races start again.
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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:

High intensity aerobic efforts actually weakens the immune system for at least two hours afterwards, so this would affect even the younger folks.

Thanks.
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Mar 25, 20 14:08
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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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The studies cited in this video suggest that training actually improves the immune response:
https://www.youtube.com/...u7iQmYTWOPxbHj5qQ7nY
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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
Mark Lemmon wrote:
Turning 61 this weekend. I'm dialing back to 40 mpw week running, all moderate pace. About a 20% reduction from my normal training load. No hard sessions. If I was 20 or 40 I'd probably remain at normal training load during the pandemic as long as I was healthy, but wouldn't increase it. I don't see an issue with an occasional short race at this time if you get appropriate rest before and after. I think a short race might even boost the immune system.

I have a couple of weeks of vacation I need to use by late June, so I'm hoping the virus will subside by that time so at least I can do a staycation where I feel it's safe to push the training load past normal when all I'm doing is training and resting at home, but that is probably optimistic at this point.


High intensity aerobic efforts actually weakens the immune system for at least two hours afterwards, so this would affect even the younger folks.

I personally have had 3 (or maybe 4) episodes of upper respiratory discomfort since mid February. One was a cold, and I'm not sure about the others (could just be allergies). After the first episode my 20-min was still at 300 W. Right now, i'd be happy if it were still above 270 W. Really haven't ridden that much since, and when I do resume, I'll make sure not to get HR over upper end of Z3. Otoh, I think strength exercise elicits additional testosterone production and may actually boost the immune system (I think there are peer-reviewed articles stating this, but can't recall where), so I'll be doing more of those.


But if you are properly isolated who cares about those two hours?- there is no acute immune challenge unless you hit the grocery store immediately post workout. If you are in a low risk group you can work hard, be careful to not get rundown (like others said, sleep more, eat well) and there won't be significant chronic effects. You do you but Im not worried about it on an acute level.

As a coach my biggest job isn't managing the impact of the actual training but the lifestyle and recovery habits surrounding the training. The same holds true here, we shouldn't tell athletes to train less or easier (within reason) but help them use their new free time better to recover, stay strong and destress.

I would go so far as to say mental self care like meditation and anxiety reduction would have a far bigger impact on hormonal health and immunity than training adjustment.

Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [gaukler] [ In reply to ]
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gaukler wrote:
The studies cited in this video suggest that training actually improves the immune response:
https://www.youtube.com/...u7iQmYTWOPxbHj5qQ7nY

definition of training is wide enough that one can drive a figurative 18-wheeler through it

We are specifically referring to prolonged training at intensity at and or above threshold. No one is saying to stop exercising, the question is to whether to completely stop high intensity aerobic exercises.

As for the sources he cited

The first screenshot at 1:33 refers to the following article. Yes, the article mentions "vigorous exercise", but it defines "vigorous exercise" as “exercise that is intense enough to cause large increases in heart rate, breathing, sweating, at a level that makes it somewhat difficult to carry on a normal conversation.” These terms are defined way too imprecisely, as mid-zone 3 would easily qualify as such. As the study does not look into effect specifically of zone 4 and 5, it's rather irrelevant wrt whether high intensity exercise makes one more liable to contract respiratory disease.

The next screenshot at 2:03 refers to this article. Its abstract, which is the only portion of the article discussed in the video, is concerned solely with moderate levels of exercise. Completely irrelevant.

The next screenshot at 2:12 is concerned with response in active vs. sedentary mice. Assuming mice models could indeed be applied to humans, and that a bacterial GI tract disease has applicability to viral respiratory disease, it still doesn't differentiate between highly intense exercise vs merely active.

By this point, I decided to stop watching and click through the links he posted. The first one, titled Debunking the Myth of Exercise-Induced Immune Suppression: Redefining the Impact of Exercise on Immunological Health Across the Lifespans is the only one of the two relevant articles. I personally found the following to be a rather belabored justification for the point the authors are trying to make (selection bias).

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Contrary to the aforementioned reports that exercise heightens infection incidence, it is often overlooked that other studies indicate that exercise participation may in fact reduce the incidence of infections. For example, a recent prospective cohort study of 1,509 Swedish men and women aged 20–60 years found that higher physical activity levels were associated with a lower incidence of self-reported URTIs (35). A much smaller but very detailed analysis of illness records kept by 11 elite endurance athletes over a period of 3–16 years showed that the total number of training hours per year was inversely correlated with sickness days reported (36). Similarly, another study of swimmers monitored for 4 years found that national level athletes had higher incidence of infections than more elite international level athletes (37). Finally, studies of ultramarathon runners, who undertake the largest volume of exercise among athletes, have shown that these individuals report fewer days missed from school or work due to illness compared to the general population. For example, the mean number of sickness days reported over 12 months was 1.5 days in a study of 1,212 ultramarathon runners and 2.8 days in a study of 489 ultramarathon runners (38, 39). These studies compared their findings to data from the United States Department of Health and Human Services report in 2009, showing that the general population report on average 4.4 illness days each year. Thus, a number of studies challenge the “J-shaped curve,” indicating that athletes undertaking the largest training loads, become ill less frequently than athletes competing at, and training at, a lower level.


Furthermore, the authors cite to rodent studies in the section "Transient Changes to Blood Lymphocyte Frequency in the Hours Following Exercise". Problem is, the article cited makes no mention of intensity of the exercise (I don't have access to the article cited). It does raise an interesting issue on whether reduction in circulating lymphocytes just means a distribution of these cells elsewhere, but other than that, not a lot to go by.


Countering this article is the following, which concludes:
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Although elite athletes are not clinically immune deficient, it is possible that the combined effects of small changes in several immune parameters may compromise resistance to common minor illnesses, such as upper respiratory tract infection. However, this may be a small price to pay as the anti-inflammatory effects of exercise mediated through cytokines and/or downregulation of toll-like receptor expression are likely mediators of many of the long-term health benefits of regular exercise.


Given all that we have, I think at best it's a toss-up (from the articles he cited) between whether intense exercise increases risk of catching an upper respiratory virus.


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Jordano wrote:
But if you are properly isolated who cares about those two hours?- there is no acute immune challenge unless you hit the grocery store immediately post workout. If you are in a low risk group you can work hard, be careful to not get rundown (like others said, sleep more, eat well) and there won't be significant chronic effects. You do you but Im not worried about it on an acute level.

Define proper isolation (i'm not trying to challenge you or be facetious).

Public health advice is that the virus per se can survive 48-72 hours on various surfaces, more if it were protected by other substances. Assuming we are talking virus particles per se, that would be 48-72 hours of no contact with the outside, for anyone sharing that living space. No fetching of mail, no walk outdoor, etc.

Doable, yes, but it'll need to be carefully crafted.
Last edited by: echappist: Mar 25, 20 18:05
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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for checking the actual studies. I’m lazy, and his conclusions were what I wanted to hear.
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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:

Define proper isolation (i'm not trying to challenge you or be facetious).

Public health advice is that the virus per se can survive 48-72 hours on various surfaces, more if it were protected by other substances. Assuming we are talking virus particles per se, that would be 48-72 hours of no contact with the outside, for anyone sharing that living space. No fetching of mail, no walk outdoor, etc.

Doable, yes, but it'll need to be carefully crafted.

I wonder how the prolonged incubation period of this thing factors into that as well. It wouldn’t be just a matter of being exposed during that period (I don’t think), you could be exposed and not show symptoms for a period of weeks.

On the other hand, it seems like a significant number of people are completely asymptomatic (including a set of athletes who certainly were doing some intense exercise). It’s hard for me to believe that the kind of immune suppression some observe with intense training could make the difference between getting very sick and not showing symptoms.
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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [Geronimo] [ In reply to ]
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Geronimo wrote:
echappist wrote:


Define proper isolation (i'm not trying to challenge you or be facetious).

Public health advice is that the virus per se can survive 48-72 hours on various surfaces, more if it were protected by other substances. Assuming we are talking virus particles per se, that would be 48-72 hours of no contact with the outside, for anyone sharing that living space. No fetching of mail, no walk outdoor, etc.

Doable, yes, but it'll need to be carefully crafted.


I wonder how the prolonged incubation period of this thing factors into that as well. It wouldn’t be just a matter of being exposed during that period (I don’t think), you could be exposed and not show symptoms for a period of weeks.

On the other hand, it seems like a significant number of people are completely asymptomatic (including a set of athletes who certainly were doing some intense exercise). It’s hard for me to believe that the kind of immune suppression some observe with intense training could make the difference between getting very sick and not showing symptoms.

I agree on that last part at least on acute level, chronic intensity with subpar recuperation could absolutely make that difference-Ive gotten a couple nasty colds and viruses after hard stage races. I see echappist's point about residues etc but I think you are talking very small chances of being infected in those cases anyway. If you only go out to get food and mail, stay away from people in that practice, sanitize and/or wear gloves etc etc, the amount you reduce exposure risk massively. If you are going to get infected by some small amount of residue after doing all of that, I think some intervals weren't going to be the difference for you.

Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [gaukler] [ In reply to ]
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gaukler wrote:
Thanks for checking the actual studies. I’m lazy, and his conclusions were what I wanted to hear.

I'm lazy too. This dude has some informative cycling videos and explores topics based on available scientific studies. In this video he explores, How hard training affects the immune system. And to his and my surprise, the studies show various forms of training all boost immunity.

You can skip to 1 minute :15 seconds in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y-2PtSxbCQ
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Re: dialing down training to protect immune system? [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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At first when I saw this I was a bit dismissive, though not like my training was very intense anyway with my race being delayed to August. However now I am fully on board with the news that a study done on macaques (saw on NYT) shows that this acts like other coronaviruses that bestow an immunity to those infected and recovered. Not clear how long it lasts and whether it acts the same in humans (they seem confident on the latter point... someone please explain to me how that works) but it does point to hope that the pandemic may end with at least temporary immunity. Even as it still means hundreds of thousands of deaths.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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