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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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Felt_Rider wrote:
velox canis wrote:
Been working hard to up my overall intake but am stuck around 100-110g/day and should be closer to 150 per the RD I work with. The volume of food necessary to hit even this amount is tricky some days, nevermind all the roughage I'm eating too. It feels like force-feeding myself to get beyond this point on a consistent basis. I've been using protein powder to boost the bottom line but am wondering if anyone has other suggestions for how to sneak more into your daily routine through real food. As mentioned above, I meet with a dietician periodically to tweak macros and talk strategy, but this remains a challenge for me so welcome any creative ideas


I used to compete as a high level bodybuilder and my protein intake in the prime was a combination of both solid food (meat mainly) and protein drinks. At the time I was shooting for greater than or equal to 2.2 grams per kg of estimated lean weight. It was frustrating to say the least when it comes to eating that much meat. I ate every 2 hours and with boiled chicken or lean red meat it is hard to get down day after day, year after year. To the point my meals would start to blend together as I would nibble at each meal until the next one started. So I am very familiar with your journey. Not to mention the cost of meat these day is greater than the cost of protein powder. My wife and I both use daily and I keep 5 lb containers at home and at work. Back in the day I had to carry a large cooler into work with all my meals prepared and packaged into the appropriate amounts. The suckage factor was intense, but I was successful in competition.

That being said I now have a half and half solid vs drink on protein intake. I've been doing this for now well over 30 years and at least 20 years with reduced meat intake and increased whey and a little casein protein powder. Much happier with this.

disclaimer: My primary training is still strength. I am not a competitive athlete and certainly piss poor at endurance type stuff, but oddly I do like sitting in aero for 5 hours at a steady fast pace. So I am not suggesting anything above in terms of endurance folk boosting protein levels to what I was doing back in the day.

I did what you did once (6 months) and had good results, aesthetically. But looking back now, how much do you think it was the increased protein vs. how much do you think it was just proper nutrient timing and how much was just lack of carbs from eating all the protein? I think for me the protein was a hack to ensure I always had protein during the small windows when it was needed and kept me from eating crap I didn't need during the windows where it wasn't.

Finally, IMO at least half if not more of bodybuilding is the timing of glycogen loading and fluid management to make you look cut and swole... another indicator in hindsight to me that my hypothesis might have some merit. Not saying it doesn't work, just that it might not work how we think it works.

E

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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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Eric, you are right on the money from my observations. I used to do the 2.2 grm/kg because that was what was said in sports medicine journals for "hard training" athletes and gym bro science, but another factor was I competed in the men's open class if you get my drift and when on stuff it utilizes food much better. So that is another factor. But later on I found what you posted to be true. Currently at 56 and training clean for the past 24 years I am currently targeting 1.5 grm/kg. I use more just after training and then the other meals the protein is a little lower.

Timing and intake are big factors. At my age I am still not too far off from muscularity wise from my competitive days, but I am going down because I cannot physically train in the same way as I did when I was younger.

Just wanted to say I agree 100% with your response and personal observations.
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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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Felt_Rider wrote:
Eric, you are right on the money from my observations. I used to do the 2.2 grm/kg because that was what was said in sports medicine journals for "hard training" athletes and gym bro science, but another factor was I competed in the men's open class if you get my drift and when on stuff it utilizes food much better. So that is another factor. But later on I found what you posted to be true. Currently at 56 and training clean for the past 24 years I am currently targeting 1.5 grm/kg. I use more just after training and then the other meals the protein is a little lower.

Timing and intake are big factors. At my age I am still not too far off from muscularity wise from my competitive days, but I am going down because I cannot physically train in the same way as I did when I was younger.

Just wanted to say I agree 100% with your response and personal observations.

Thanks for the insight and candor.

You bring up a good point applicable to us endurance athletes and the “open division”...

People amplify the endurance sports version of “bro science” with regard to getting faster on swim bike or run but it’s predicated on copying what the pros do. But don’t copy what the pros do (or in your case the “open division”) just because they’re fast, because they’re either totally different organisms genetically or on the gear or both, which is why they do what they do. In other words, we don’t know what we don’t know.

So whether it’s massive amounts of protein for open division body builders or “high cadence” for EPO enhanced Gruber assist using cyclists, there might be an alternative explanation for why they do what they do and its efficacy for normal people.

E

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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [velox canis] [ In reply to ]
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I've read many responses, but not all, but here's a data point from my perspective. I will certainly not claim to be perfect.

I have been weighing and measuring everything I eat for about 3 full years now. Maybe.....3 weeks total of not doing it during that time.

I rode my bike over 23,000 miles last year. I have gotten myself to where I can ride with about "anyone" on the bike. So....pointy level determination here and maybe not for everyone.

I generally consume ~3 g/kg protein per day but see above....I eat a lot! I can gain or lose weight in a blink by counting calories.

Here's what I feel is important for performance. Feed protein every ~2 hours while awake. I live by that. Yep that means maybe 2-3 servings of whey (preferably isolate) per day. Generally last serving ~30 minutes before bed.

I actually tend to feel the best balance with a macro ratio of 20% protein, 30% fat, 50% carbs. I'll certainly jump up the carbs on huge days / race prep days / etc. If I get to 45% carbs I feel the drag.

Lots of ways to skin a cat. I eat lots of meat. I absolutely am not confident / comfortable utilizing plant protein sources. It's just me and based on my research. Therefore read meat maybe up to 2 times / week. Lots of fish. Lots of chicken. Lots of eggs. Almost all whole foods except I do energy bars to bridge the gaps.

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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [mountain_erin] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe this might be interesting https://unimeal.com/blog/10-homemade-high-calorie-protein-shakes-to-gain-weight-and-build-muscles-86 There are lots diet plans and useful info about your problem.
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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [rufinojoe] [ In reply to ]
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rufinojoe wrote:
Maybe this might be interesting https://unimeal.com/blog/10-homemade-high-calorie-protein-shakes-to-gain-weight-and-build-muscles-86 There are lots diet plans and useful info about your problem.

I’ve generally read that your body can only absorb ~40g protein at a time

My challenge on the shakes is you can get a lot of protein in them, but that much is “cheating” to hit the daily targets
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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [rufinojoe] [ In reply to ]
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What's up with the recent bumps for Ancient threads?

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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [Zissou] [ In reply to ]
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Zissou wrote:
I would also be interested in learning why your dietician thinks you need a certain amount of protein. Chronic issues, injuries, poor recovery, etc.?
wannabefaster wrote:
Why does your dietitian want you to consume almost three times the recommended daily amount of protein? I'm not trying to be a problem, I am genuinely curious about what benefit you would see from consuming that much protein?
RDA for protein is what will keep you from experiencing near-term mortality and morbidity from low-protein related pathologies. RDA for protein is laughably low compared to what is optimal for body composition and health. 0.6-1.0g protein per pound of body weight is probably more optimal for >95% of population.

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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Zissou wrote:
I would also be interested in learning why your dietician thinks you need a certain amount of protein. Chronic issues, injuries, poor recovery, etc.?
wannabefaster wrote:
Why does your dietitian want you to consume almost three times the recommended daily amount of protein? I'm not trying to be a problem, I am genuinely curious about what benefit you would see from consuming that much protein?
RDA for protein is what will keep you from experiencing near-term mortality and morbidity from low-protein related pathologies. RDA for protein is laughably low compared to what is optimal for body composition and health. 0.6-1.0g protein per pound of body weight is probably more optimal for >95% of population.

I'm in total agreement. Taking in too much protein can adversely affect kidney function (BUN) and can even cause weight gain.
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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [Vegan Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Vegan Tri wrote:
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Zissou wrote:
I would also be interested in learning why your dietician thinks you need a certain amount of protein. Chronic issues, injuries, poor recovery, etc.?
wannabefaster wrote:
Why does your dietitian want you to consume almost three times the recommended daily amount of protein? I'm not trying to be a problem, I am genuinely curious about what benefit you would see from consuming that much protein?
RDA for protein is what will keep you from experiencing near-term mortality and morbidity from low-protein related pathologies. RDA for protein is laughably low compared to what is optimal for body composition and health. 0.6-1.0g protein per pound of body weight is probably more optimal for >95% of population.

I'm in total agreement. Taking in too much protein can adversely affect kidney function (BUN) and can even cause weight gain.

Can cause weight gain, like water can kill you. Rare circumstance. See rabbit protein starvation.
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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [Vegan Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Vegan Tri wrote:
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Zissou wrote:
I would also be interested in learning why your dietician thinks you need a certain amount of protein. Chronic issues, injuries, poor recovery, etc.?

wannabefaster wrote:
Why does your dietitian want you to consume almost three times the recommended daily amount of protein? I'm not trying to be a problem, I am genuinely curious about what benefit you would see from consuming that much protein?

RDA for protein is what will keep you from experiencing near-term mortality and morbidity from low-protein related pathologies. RDA for protein is laughably low compared to what is optimal for body composition and health. 0.6-1.0g protein per pound of body weight is probably more optimal for >95% of population.


I'm in total agreement. Taking in too much protein can adversely affect kidney function (BUN) and can even cause weight gain.


While high protein diet does produce some differences in kidney function (e.g. increased GFR) there's no real evidence that these changes or indeed high protein diets lead to long term kidney damage in healthy people. The real risk factors for kidney disease are obesity, high blood pressure, smoking, diabetes etc.

The myth of protein being terrible for kidneys probably comes from the fact that people with chronic kidney disease are instructed to limit protein (even then 0.8g per kg bw is normal for CKD stages 1 and 2). It's one of those things where you can't judge something being bad for healthy people based on it not being good for a clinical group.
Last edited by: James2020: Feb 18, 22 10:46
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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Zissou wrote:
I would also be interested in learning why your dietician thinks you need a certain amount of protein. Chronic issues, injuries, poor recovery, etc.?

wannabefaster wrote:
Why does your dietitian want you to consume almost three times the recommended daily amount of protein? I'm not trying to be a problem, I am genuinely curious about what benefit you would see from consuming that much protein?

RDA for protein is what will keep you from experiencing near-term mortality and morbidity from low-protein related pathologies. RDA for protein is laughably low compared to what is optimal for body composition and health. 0.6-1.0g protein per pound of body weight is probably more optimal for >95% of population.

I seriously cannot find a consensus on protein requirements. From the vegan favored spaces you'll hear that protein requirements are exaggerated. Then on the other hand I hear I should be getting 1-1.25 per pound for athletes. That over 150g of protein! Can't get there on beans and lentils alone. I eat tofu/tempeh but I'm a bit iffy on taking in mass amounts of soy. I just cannot find a consensus on that either. Currently eat 1/3 a block a day. Even with chicken, that's still a lot. So I have been drinking whey protein. I'm not totally vegan but 99% of my eating at home is.

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Use code ST5 for $5 off your order
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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]
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Ryanppax wrote:
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Zissou wrote:
I would also be interested in learning why your dietician thinks you need a certain amount of protein. Chronic issues, injuries, poor recovery, etc.?

wannabefaster wrote:
Why does your dietitian want you to consume almost three times the recommended daily amount of protein? I'm not trying to be a problem, I am genuinely curious about what benefit you would see from consuming that much protein?

RDA for protein is what will keep you from experiencing near-term mortality and morbidity from low-protein related pathologies. RDA for protein is laughably low compared to what is optimal for body composition and health. 0.6-1.0g protein per pound of body weight is probably more optimal for >95% of population.


I seriously cannot find a consensus on protein requirements. From the vegan favored spaces you'll hear that protein requirements are exaggerated. Then on the other hand I hear I should be getting 1-1.25 per pound for athletes. That over 150g of protein! Can't get there on beans and lentils alone. I eat tofu/tempeh but I'm a bit iffy on taking in mass amounts of soy. I just cannot find a consensus on that either. Currently eat 1/3 a block a day. Even with chicken, that's still a lot. So I have been drinking whey protein. I'm not totally vegan but 99% of my eating at home is.


There is nothing efficient for an athlete when they're on a vegan diet. However, I know a great vegan protein powder, flavor system is on point.

https://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/planta-plant-protein-peanut-butter-cup-1-72-lb-powder/amc0003

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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I have no problem with whey and Optimum gold standard mixed so well and so well priced.

I've essentially just eliminated milk and meats which wasn't very hard. I'll never give up Five guys and regular pizza though!

IG - @ryanppax
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Use code ST5 for $5 off your order
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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]
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Ryanppax wrote:
I have no problem with whey and Optimum gold standard mixed so well and so well priced.

I've essentially just eliminated milk and meats which wasn't very hard. I'll never give up Five guys and regular pizza though!

The last 5 Guys I went to was so mediocre. Fries are still good though.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Totally agree
First, what's the problem and what are he's looking forward
age?
real protein is in the red meat
never replace a real food with a protein shake
never overeat
lactose intolerant?
don't consume inflammatory foods (process carbohydrates, cow milk, refined oils)

there's a lot of factors
Last edited by: khouryd: Feb 18, 22 16:11
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Re: Need more protein but struggle with food volume [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]
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Not ancient, and it's an interesting topic that i missed first time around. reading with interest, so i'm thankful.

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