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Re: For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
At Muncie 70.3 in 2018, I sighted normally to the first and second buoys, but after the 2nd turn to the finish it’s directly into the sun. You can’t see shit if you sight anyway, so I only sighted enough to make sure I was heading into the sun, then pick up landmarks when I got closer to shore. I couldn’t tell you exactly how much I was sighting, but it was probably 30 seconds or more between sights.

17th OA and 2nd AG out of the water that day.

That's how it is in Austria back from the lake in direction of the channel. You don't see a thing even with polaroid goggles. My sighting consists there not looking forwardly, but sidely and trying to have as much swimmers on the right as on the left.
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Re: For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
140triguy wrote:
I noted in my earlier comment that I barely sighted forward during the last 2000m of a 4000m race. That’s bc I was able to position myself to the left of a really fast swimmer. I was able to see her on every breath bc I breathe much more naturally to the right. I pretty much looked her in the eye or saw her feet on every breath.

In IM Louisville, the swim starts in a narrow channel then turns to go downstream with Louisville on the left and Indiana on the right. Those features make it really easy to sight the banks that are parallel to the course.


Yes, that doesn't really count for my question - you're in effect swimming on a sight line as you noted (her).

I'm asking on the lines of what Dev saying - having NO landmarks or fellow swimmers to reliably sight off of during breathing, and just relying on Pythagoras and straight swimming like Dev's theoretical example.

One more thing you can do to see really well and not lose much time. Just keep your head down and don't sight, as long as you are around people (like 140 triguy said, swim on the left or right hip of another swimmer as this is a really good spot to "sit" since you grab their water as soon as they accelerated it, but you don't have to deal with their turbulent water off their feet (and lose their feet). But if you want to look up, one nice way is do this. With right arm extended in front, keep it there and have your left arm do catch up. Just before left arm enters push head and chest really deep and then do a tiny breast stroke pull as your head pops up while your legs do a single dolphin kick....your head will pop way up high without having to arch your back (it will literally pop up like a beach ball that you try to sink in the water), and you can see everything, shoot both your hands forward, and then start back into a free. If you are even slightly off you can course correct and put yourself the swimmers who are going "more straight"....then trust them and keep your head down.
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Re: For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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140triguy wrote:
My suggestions for those who are worried about about the up and down motion of the head/hip couplet during sighting is to do lots of core work and work on sighting as part of a breath in the stroke cycle. What I mean by that is to slightly lift your head forward to get the eyes and face out of the water and then turn it as normal DURING the normal-tempo stroke cycle. Your non-breathing side arm takes a slightly shorter extension and instead of you reaching out with it as in a normal stroke, you press down as you’re lifting your head for that combo sight/breath stroke. You should not be lifting your head independently of your normal breathing pattern. Those are the sighting moves that drop your hips, not the forward look/side breath combo.

All good stuff except for this last bit. What sinks your hips is not lifting your head: it is the pushing down with your arms in front to raise your head that drops your hips. Lifting your head by using your neck and back muscles alone will not drop your hips; if anything, that will *raise* your legs.

If you think about it, if lifting your head were to drop your legs, you'd end up spinning around head over heels. Physics doesn't work that way.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
At Muncie 70.3 in 2018, I sighted normally to the first and second buoys, but after the 2nd turn to the finish it’s directly into the sun. You can’t see shit if you sight anyway, so I only sighted enough to make sure I was heading into the sun, then pick up landmarks when I got closer to shore. I couldn’t tell you exactly how much I was sighting, but it was probably 30 seconds or more between sights.

17th OA and 2nd AG out of the water that day.


The sun was brutal that day! I changed my goggles to a much better polarized pair after that race, but doubt it would have made much difference that day. Looks like we may have passed each other several times that day! I was just :36 in front of you at the finish.

Edit: didn't realize you meant 17OA on swim. I was thinking OA that day.

Blog: https://davidkoppeltriathlon.blogspot.com/
Coaching: https://dkendurance.com/
Last edited by: DKMNTRI: Feb 17, 20 6:42
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Re: For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
lightheir wrote:

If I were a top 10% or higher swimmer, I might trust the toes of those in front, but at my level which is still better than 80% typically, those toes are utterly unreliable. In OWS, even veering off course by a 'small' 25m costs you significants amounts of time!)


This is my experience too. The problem is, even when I have open water in front of me, I too have taken bad lines, so I’m not sure ignoring others’ lines in lieu of my own, puts me in a much better position.

This is me. I'm usually in the top 15-20% and my sense is that many people around me struggle to swim in a straight line. The problem is that I do too. In a race, I'm never really sure if I should follow the guy who seems to be swimming across my line or if I should trust myself. I also find it very difficult to find someone swimming my pace. I tend to start slow and build. My sense is that most others around me tend to do the opposite. While I would love to follow the advice of just grabbing on to someone's heels, it never seems to work out that way and it's always much more chaotic than I'd hoped.
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Re: For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I def disagree with you Dev, as a non FOP OWS swimmer.

Like I said, Pythagoras is your friend....you can be 5 m away from a buoy to your right and if the next buoy is only 12m away you would cover 13m to correct your path to the line. At 120m from the next buoy you can be 50m off course and only go 130m relative to the guy going 120m directly. This is an insanely extreme example as 50m off from a buoy does not happen in real racing. Likely scenario you're 5 m off from a buoy on your right 100m away from the next buoy which is a turn. By the next buoy you only went 100.12m in distance while the person right on the buoy went 100m.

No one swims as long as they THINK. We're all roughly covering the course pretty straight unless we go 5-10m past turn buoys.

I cannot believe I never thought about this, but Dev is right. If I swam five meters off course over fifty meters and then corrected my line over the next fifty meters, I would swim 0.5 meters more than the guy who swam completely straight. If I repeated that pattern for an entire Ironman swim, I'd add 19 meters to my swim, which is about 20 seconds. But even that much time is unlikely as swimming five meters off course over fifty meters is a lot. In my pool, the lanes are 2.5 meters wide. I'm not good at swimming straight, but I don't veer off that much. In retrospect, I've been so paranoid about holding my line that I've probably undercut my swim time by sighting too often (roughly every 4-6 strokes). I think I will at least double that in my next race.
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Re: For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting [Changpao] [ In reply to ]
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Changpao wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I def disagree with you Dev, as a non FOP OWS swimmer.

Like I said, Pythagoras is your friend....you can be 5 m away from a buoy to your right and if the next buoy is only 12m away you would cover 13m to correct your path to the line. At 120m from the next buoy you can be 50m off course and only go 130m relative to the guy going 120m directly. This is an insanely extreme example as 50m off from a buoy does not happen in real racing. Likely scenario you're 5 m off from a buoy on your right 100m away from the next buoy which is a turn. By the next buoy you only went 100.12m in distance while the person right on the buoy went 100m.

No one swims as long as they THINK. We're all roughly covering the course pretty straight unless we go 5-10m past turn buoys.


I cannot believe I never thought about this, but Dev is right. If I swam five meters off course over fifty meters and then corrected my line over the next fifty meters, I would swim 0.5 meters more than the guy who swam completely straight. If I repeated that pattern for an entire Ironman swim, I'd add 19 meters to my swim, which is about 20 seconds. But even that much time is unlikely as swimming five meters off course over fifty meters is a lot. In my pool, the lanes are 2.5 meters wide. I'm not good at swimming straight, but I don't veer off that much. In retrospect, I've been so paranoid about holding my line that I've probably undercut my swim time by sighting too often (roughly every 4-6 strokes). I think I will at least double that in my next race.


I too see the trigonometry aspects, but I still take great pause with it. I look out what pro triathletes and even what pro pure open water swim racers do, and they sight much more than once every 20 strokes or so. I do think there must be a real difference in the theoretical vs the practical aspect of it, but I'm not an expert by any stretch. Either way, I haven't heard of any legit swim coaches also saying to sight that infrequently.

As I said early, i swim VERY straight in a pool, but it's different in OWS with current, bodies, etc. And I've def experimented with sighting once every 10+ stroke cycles (in fact I do it every race, as I try and find the mininum I need to sight to stay reasonably on-course, and I'll go astray pretty quickly with that practice. Still, does sound like it does work for some above, so I'll be looking into just eating those differences and seeing how it pans out next go around.
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Re: For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting [DKMNTRI] [ In reply to ]
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DKMNTRI wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
At Muncie 70.3 in 2018, I sighted normally to the first and second buoys, but after the 2nd turn to the finish it’s directly into the sun. You can’t see shit if you sight anyway, so I only sighted enough to make sure I was heading into the sun, then pick up landmarks when I got closer to shore. I couldn’t tell you exactly how much I was sighting, but it was probably 30 seconds or more between sights.

17th OA and 2nd AG out of the water that day.


The sun was brutal that day! I changed my goggles to a much better polarized pair after that race, but doubt it would have made much difference that day. Looks like we may have passed each other several times that day! I was just :36 in front of you at the finish.

Edit: didn't realize you meant 17OA on swim. I was thinking OA that day.

Yeah, I completely imploded on the last 5 miles of the bike and the run. Heat, training, bad prep and it’s been a long time since I raced that distance. Leg cramps from hell. I wound up barely walking.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
DKMNTRI wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
At Muncie 70.3 in 2018, I sighted normally to the first and second buoys, but after the 2nd turn to the finish it’s directly into the sun. You can’t see shit if you sight anyway, so I only sighted enough to make sure I was heading into the sun, then pick up landmarks when I got closer to shore. I couldn’t tell you exactly how much I was sighting, but it was probably 30 seconds or more between sights.

17th OA and 2nd AG out of the water that day.


The sun was brutal that day! I changed my goggles to a much better polarized pair after that race, but doubt it would have made much difference that day. Looks like we may have passed each other several times that day! I was just :36 in front of you at the finish.

Edit: didn't realize you meant 17OA on swim. I was thinking OA that day.


Yeah, I completely imploded on the last 5 miles of the bike and the run. Heat, training, bad prep and it’s been a long time since I raced that distance. Leg cramps from hell. I wound up barely walking.

The longer people were out on that course, the worse it got. It was so hot and the sun was relentless.

Blog: https://davidkoppeltriathlon.blogspot.com/
Coaching: https://dkendurance.com/
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Re: For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting [Changpao] [ In reply to ]
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Changpao wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I def disagree with you Dev, as a non FOP OWS swimmer.

Like I said, Pythagoras is your friend....you can be 5 m away from a buoy to your right and if the next buoy is only 12m away you would cover 13m to correct your path to the line. At 120m from the next buoy you can be 50m off course and only go 130m relative to the guy going 120m directly. This is an insanely extreme example as 50m off from a buoy does not happen in real racing. Likely scenario you're 5 m off from a buoy on your right 100m away from the next buoy which is a turn. By the next buoy you only went 100.12m in distance while the person right on the buoy went 100m.

No one swims as long as they THINK. We're all roughly covering the course pretty straight unless we go 5-10m past turn buoys.

I cannot believe I never thought about this, but Dev is right. If I swam five meters off course over fifty meters and then corrected my line over the next fifty meters, I would swim 0.5 meters more than the guy who swam completely straight. If I repeated that pattern for an entire Ironman swim, I'd add 19 meters to my swim, which is about 20 seconds. But even that much time is unlikely as swimming five meters off course over fifty meters is a lot. In my pool, the lanes are 2.5 meters wide. I'm not good at swimming straight, but I don't veer off that much. In retrospect, I've been so paranoid about holding my line that I've probably undercut my swim time by sighting too often (roughly every 4-6 strokes). I think I will at least double that in my next race.

Yeah, in my experience there’s not much point in worrying too much about the line until you get about halfway to the turn buoys. What’s more important is to keep an eye on where your competitors are so you don’t ram into them, get a draft, get them off your draft etc.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Last year, starting in May (2 months out from my target race), I did at least one open water swim per week (in wetsuit). I live in Wisconsin, and if weather allowed, I would probably start earlier with open water swimming in a wetsuit.

For sighting, in the training program I use (Tower 26), we start incorporating sighting practice in almost 3-4 swims per week, probably sometime around March/April. During those swims, specific sighting prescriptions are built into many/most of the training sets. I found that to be extremely helpful in building the familiarity it, such that after a month or two, it felt completely natural and had no impact at all on even high effort performance results.
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Re: For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Changpao wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I def disagree with you Dev, as a non FOP OWS swimmer.

Like I said, Pythagoras is your friend....you can be 5 m away from a buoy to your right and if the next buoy is only 12m away you would cover 13m to correct your path to the line. At 120m from the next buoy you can be 50m off course and only go 130m relative to the guy going 120m directly. This is an insanely extreme example as 50m off from a buoy does not happen in real racing. Likely scenario you're 5 m off from a buoy on your right 100m away from the next buoy which is a turn. By the next buoy you only went 100.12m in distance while the person right on the buoy went 100m.

No one swims as long as they THINK. We're all roughly covering the course pretty straight unless we go 5-10m past turn buoys.


I cannot believe I never thought about this, but Dev is right. If I swam five meters off course over fifty meters and then corrected my line over the next fifty meters, I would swim 0.5 meters more than the guy who swam completely straight. If I repeated that pattern for an entire Ironman swim, I'd add 19 meters to my swim, which is about 20 seconds. But even that much time is unlikely as swimming five meters off course over fifty meters is a lot. In my pool, the lanes are 2.5 meters wide. I'm not good at swimming straight, but I don't veer off that much. In retrospect, I've been so paranoid about holding my line that I've probably undercut my swim time by sighting too often (roughly every 4-6 strokes). I think I will at least double that in my next race.


I too see the trigonometry aspects, but I still take great pause with it. I look out what pro triathletes and even what pro pure open water swim racers do, and they sight much more than once every 20 strokes or so. I do think there must be a real difference in the theoretical vs the practical aspect of it, but I'm not an expert by any stretch. Either way, I haven't heard of any legit swim coaches also saying to sight that infrequently.

As I said early, i swim VERY straight in a pool, but it's different in OWS with current, bodies, etc. And I've def experimented with sighting once every 10+ stroke cycles (in fact I do it every race, as I try and find the mininum I need to sight to stay reasonably on-course, and I'll go astray pretty quickly with that practice. Still, does sound like it does work for some above, so I'll be looking into just eating those differences and seeing how it pans out next go around.

Is it possible that


  1. Many age groupers can do better math than the bulk of pros
  2. Pros do what MOP age groupers do, they are just able to do it without their hips sinking?
  3. Top pros do have to see where they are going, but really the top guy has the lead kayak, so depending on the race, the top guy may be able to ask kayaker to stay on his right or left shoulder

I did the latter in a 12km swim race where each of us had our own kayaker. My head was buried looking to the bottom of a black lake or to the side seeing my kayaker. Not sure if the lead pro gets to do that with the race provided kayaker, so there would be a need for that person to sight a bit more.
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Re: For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Zero and Zero. My area doesn't have much access to open water swims, and the few man-made lakes that we have, are usually full of blue/green algae and often closed anyways. I also won't expose my expensive wet suit to chlorine in the pool... so I just wing it on race day, and haven't had any problems. The wet suit races make me feel like I can fly! For sighting, if I think of it, I'll sight the deck clock, or my water bottle, every half length. Works fine on race day.

Athlinks / Strava
Last edited by: Dean T: Feb 17, 20 12:21
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Re: For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Just curious - For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting?

I'm not a beginner, have been doing tri for 10 years now, but OWS access is definitely still a major problem for me, mainly due to scheduling but also because it's annoyingly far/trafficky for me to drive to.

I've found for myself that it's absolutely crucial for me to swim in my full sleeved wetsuit at least 3x prior to race day - the first sessions is always terrible due to early arm fatigue, but it goes away completely by the 3rd. (My wetsuit fits totally fine as well, I've tried a few, and the one I'm using definitely is not problematic for fit.)

I also have found that deliberate practicing of sighting in the pool (both with and without wetsuit) is really important for me to keep a good rhythm with swimming on race day. I don't do much sighting if practice if I'm 2 months+ out from race day, but I'm doing it every session, for a lot of the session the closer I get to race day and it also seems to make a huge difference.

Just kinda surprised it never gets discussed here, although I guess you don't have to worry about this type of prep much if you have regular access to OWS prior to race day which is obviously recommended over no-OWS.

I don’t practice in a wetsuit, I don’t do any OWS other than races, and I will do a little sighting in the pool as I get closer to races.

54-57 min IM swimmer. I could be faster but spend my time on the other 2 disciplines.

I just swim hard in the pool and focus on holding my technique during HARD swims. It is amazing what happens when you swim like a swimmer.
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Re: For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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NAB777 wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
lightheir wrote:
Just curious - For those that don't OWS before race - how much do you train in wetsuit and practice sighting?

I'm not a beginner, have been doing tri for 10 years now, but OWS access is definitely still a major problem for me, mainly due to scheduling but also because it's annoyingly far/trafficky for me to drive to.

I've found for myself that it's absolutely crucial for me to swim in my full sleeved wetsuit at least 3x prior to race day - the first sessions is always terrible due to early arm fatigue, but it goes away completely by the 3rd. (My wetsuit fits totally fine as well, I've tried a few, and the one I'm using definitely is not problematic for fit.)

I also have found that deliberate practicing of sighting in the pool (both with and without wetsuit) is really important for me to keep a good rhythm with swimming on race day. I don't do much sighting if practice if I'm 2 months+ out from race day, but I'm doing it every session, for a lot of the session the closer I get to race day and it also seems to make a huge difference.

Just kinda surprised it never gets discussed here, although I guess you don't have to worry about this type of prep much if you have regular access to OWS prior to race day which is obviously recommended over no-OWS.

You really don't need to practice sighting unless you are going to lead the race or lead your wave. Pythagoras is your friend. Everyone THINKS they do long detours but this is not true UNLESS you go really wide at buoys. Just put your head down and follow the bubbles in front of you and you will get to the finish line of the swim. Everytime you look up to sight you will lose time when your hips drop....that time loss is much worse than just keeping your head down and following bubbles of the swimmers in front of you.

As for the arm fatigue, I hear you, but it may just be because your wetsuit needs to be soaked after sitting around for a long time.

No, mate. Had I done that 2 weeks ago I would have followed the guy in front of me out to sea. There have been quite a few times that my sighting has enabled me to put ~30 seconds into guys who were ahead of me during the swim.

Quoting myself!!
I just went back & checked the result of the race I referenced above. We are talking about a deep water start, the race was 1200m, of which ~ 1100m was dead straight, parallel to shore, then we turned left & had about 100m to the finish line. Perfect, flat conditions.

The guy I was referring to kept drifting right (out to sea), I couldn't get ahead of him so at 300m, I actually stopped to let him go, and once I did that, I gradually pulled away from him. I put 40 seconds into the next place behind me, so if it was him, that's 40 seconds in about 900m - and this is someone I couldn't pass earlier on.

Point being, you shouldn't blindly follow the person in front of you.
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