In terms of the group dynamics, I do almost all of my riding inside and the only person I ride with outside is occasionally my wife (and my FTP is at least twice hers). I find that if I can average 4 w/kg or higher I can generally sit in the front group of most Zwift races and rides - it's of course much higher at the start and on climbs.

In terms of TT routes, I often use the desert and just do out and backs. I don't have to worry that much about choosing routes except at the two turn-around spots - yes boring, but it's easy to hold consistent power. I've also done the Watopia perimeter loop going out the desert, then out to the Voclano and back to the main starting area - that loop is around 16 miles. I like a Sat ride that does 100km in around 2:10-2:12 - I aim for an average of ~4 w/kg during the ride and it's good prep for 70.3 races. The last two times I've done that ride have been the Watopia loop.

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I know you said Watopia, but Richmond Prefer Flat Roads (or whatever they're calling it post-update now) is one of my favorite TT courses. Flat as a pancake and interesting to look at.

I can't seem to make sense of what your saying.
Either drafting gives you an advantage and not being in the draft is a big penalty. Or Drafting gives little advantage and not being in the draft is a small penalty. You cant have it both ways.
Anyway if you want to experiment with drafting and riding in packs join a group ride most will turn into a race if there is no barrier, Also you make no mention of your weight Zwift is all abouts Watt per kilo on all but the flattest course.

I think that was his point. *I think* he is suing that, in his experience, the manner of which the software deals with drafting is not real-world accurate in that you don’t get a big advantage when you are in it but if you drop out, it kills you.

I do laps on Tick Tock all the time - it's a 10.5 mile loop. The ~4 mile stretch through the desert from the Rock Arch to Saddle Springs is the hardest as it seems to blur together, but once you climb out of the desert, get down to Ocean Blvd, make a few turns and head back past the start point, there seem to be enough features/turns/changes every 1-1.5 miles or so to have something to see on the map and mentally tick off and it goes by pretty fast.

Thanks to everyone for chiming in



I think therein lies the problem. The B-grade rides are for people with FTP ~4 w/kg or lower. If i were to do close to 4 w/kg at the front, i'd be too spent to do anything



Is this the Ascender's Ride at ~6pm EST?

I'll give the perimeter loop a try (though IIRC, it's not a selectable route)





I tried that a few times. It's fine for racing, but somehow I just don't like it for TT training. Similarly, the London Greater Flat course should be ideal for what I need, but I also find it somehow depressing. Don't really know why...



You are right, my post wasn't as clear as it should have been. The drafting advantage is compared to those driving the group.

The advantage in Zwift is not saving in power needed to keep up (definition of a significant draft). The advantage is increased overall pack speed (as a result of reduced pack CdA), thus giving the pack advantage relative to the break or chasers.

Say in real life (no wind, almost all flat) that one needs 300 W to ride 25 mph solo. In a group of 20, the guy driving things in the front may need to generate ~290 W (b/c having someone drafting also reduces CdA). In the same group, those who are trailing needs only ~200 W to keep up. After breaking away, if one maintains 310 W, one will pull away from this group. Or if one somehow gets tailed off, if one maintains 310 W, one will close the gap to the group.

This doesn't happen in Zwift. Instead of significant power savings experienced by the drafters, what happens is a much reduced CdA for the pack, thus allowing it to move faster.

From one of my rides on the Zwift desert route (after the oasis, heading toward the main climb). Solo, 290W gives 26.4 mph on Tron bike (mass of 71 kg).

In a group where no one is doing more than 4 w/kg (even those on the front), I'm moving at 28.3 mph while doing 225W. So yes, there is an aero benefit, but it's not remotely comparable to what we experience IRL. The question is, how is 290W solo worth only 26.4 mph, when a similar power driving on the front yields speed almost 2 mph faster in a group (when everyone is on a road bike). That level of CdA drop is what I experience going from my road bike to my TT bike...



yep, you put it a lot better than I initially did



thank you. That's the type of scenery change I need. I can take ~10-15 minutes of the desert (and it actually is kinda nice), but I need a change of scenery to get me to 30 minutes

Chapeau to all of you who can tough it out on Tick Tock for hours

I sort of get how he feels, but if it's really punishing you NOT being in the draft, then it has to be really helping you being IN the draft.


That said, I do find it hard to figure out. In a real pack, it's much easier to sense the degree to which you're in the draft, and feel when you're beginning to slip from it before you actually do.

In the last race I did I hung with the front group for about 15 minutes, started sliding backwards suddenly, was hammering but out the back before I knew it. No idea how. There are just things to learn, like sensing the group accelerating, that aren't as intuitive looking at a screen as actually riding.

Volcano Flat + the Desert loop is the best long/flat ride by far. Takes about 40 minutes per lap at 23 mph. As you leave the Watopia start line, take a left up to the desert, ride it through until it drops down the far side and connects back to the giant sequoia tree in the underwater tunnel. Then take a left and finish riding volcano flat to the start/finish line. I do laps of this for long rides and it never gets boring.

Anybody know how to create a custom route in Zwift so I don't have to tell it to turn for this loop?

For TT efforts choose absolutely any course you want and just set your trainer difficulty to 0, you won't feel any of the grade changes on a smart trainer then.

Totally agree with this. It really doesn’t feel like being on a real road anyway, imo

The thing that I have found is different about Zwift, is that when you are in someone's draft zone, then Zwift makes you "Stick" to them. Meaning that they make a specific upper and lower number where you will just stay behind them. So say the rider in front is doing 200W, flat course, then zwift may make the draft zone be 180-220. But what is significant about that, is that if you do slightly MORE watts then the person in front of you, then you still stay behind them, instead of passing. This is what is the issue in huge groups. If you were at the back of a huge group, you have to push a ton of power to move to the front. Because each person you are moving past, you are having to "Break the stickiness". If that makes sense. At least this is what I have found, and I think there are some articles about it.

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My Strava

+1

You can also try setting it quite low (say 20%) so that you still feel some minor grade variation, but even steep ramps don't send you gear searching.

Note: Zwift applies the trainer difficulty to uphills, and 1/2 to descents (so at 50% trainer difficulty, a 10% grade feels like 5% on the way up and -2.5% on the way down).

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Pack riding on Zwift feels a lot more like a hill climb type race/ride does IRL. There is no hanging out in the pack and no coasting; it takes a strong effort just to stay in the group....and once you get spat out the back you go backwards really quickly.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Yes. I have had this happen to me.

Unless, of course, everyone in the draft is going hard all of the time. With practice, pack riding in zwift gets easier, but it doesn't feel anything like the real world

That is quite correct, not as easy in pack as outside (actually quite a bit harder) but for fairness in races I'm ok with this.
My big issue is the "being spit out back". Even if it is a 10 meter gap i have to push 500W for 20 second to close to a groupd going 250W sort of. Absolutely impossible to catch groups solo in this game.

Or break away, for that matter, unless there's a significant obstacle to shred the pack.

Again, i'm resigned to accept all these drawbacks, because there's no other game in town, so to speak (don't really want to toe the line at a mass start race anymore). But it makes for some really dull riding and racing.