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could I expect Chung test/ A B runs could tease out differences between two 'good' aerobars?
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Just asking to see if it's even worth attempting the tests, or of the differences I could expect would be in the margin of error. Assume good test protocol etc etc etc.

I intend to compare a set of USE Tulas to a set of Blackwell Concord bars, using the same position, identical pad / armrest coordinates, hand and elbow position, etc.

Unless somebody has already answered this or could provide a reasonable guess.
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Re: could I expect Chung test/ A B runs could tease out differences between two 'good' aerobars? [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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According to this maybe :)

http://www.trainingandracingwithapowermeter.com/...aerodynamicists.html

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The limit of detection would therefore appear to be less than ~0.15 N (~15 g) in drag force, which at typical racing speeds/air densities translates to a difference in CdA of less than ~0.0015 m^2, a difference in power requirement of less than ~1.5 W, and/or a difference in 40 km TT time of less than ~6 s.

davetallo wrote:
Just asking to see if it's even worth attempting the tests, or of the differences I could expect would be in the margin of error. Assume good test protocol etc etc etc.
I intend to compare a set of USE Tulas to a set of Blackwell Concord bars, using the same position, identical pad / armrest coordinates, hand and elbow position, etc.

Unless somebody has already answered this or could provide a reasonable guess.

What's your CdA?
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Re: could I expect Chung test/ A B runs could tease out differences between two 'good' aerobars? [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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davetallo wrote:
I intend to compare a set of USE Tulas to a set of Blackwell Concord bars, using the same position, identical pad / armrest coordinates, hand and elbow position, etc.

Maybe in a velodrome. Pretty much zero chance of finding that out outdoors. Even with the best protocol and multiple A-B swaps you have subtle position/posture differences to contend with. And unless I'm mistaken, you won't be able to swap bars easily enough. Comparing one day to another is not going to work.
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Re: could I expect Chung test/ A B runs could tease out differences between two 'good' aerobars? [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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Can you test with that level of accuracy? Absolutely, although as the differences become smaller, you have to get better at testing :D

To answer your question though... if your position works on the Tula's, I'd bet a lot of money they are a fairly easy to measure amount faster than the BR's. You probably gain a very little bit more if they are the 38cm basebar.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: could I expect Chung test/ A B runs could tease out differences between two 'good' aerobars? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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G. Belson wrote:
According to this maybe :)

http://www.trainingandracingwithapowermeter.com/...aerodynamicists.html

Quote:
The limit of detection would therefore appear to be less than ~0.15 N (~15 g) in drag force, which at typical racing speeds/air densities translates to a difference in CdA of less than ~0.0015 m^2, a difference in power requirement of less than ~1.5 W, and/or a difference in 40 km TT time of less than ~6 s.


Morelock wrote:
Can you test with that level of accuracy? Absolutely, although as the differences become smaller, you have to get better at testing :D

Yeah, one can test with that level of accuracy, but you have to really get your technique down, plus have a good power meter, plus have a little bit of luck. Personally, on an outdoor course the lowest I've seen was a difference around 0.04N (~4 g) in drag force, but I was pretty lucky to get a really calm day. I'm not sure how small of a difference I would have been able to detect on that day but less than that.

I wouldn't expect that anyone could tease out that small of a difference without some practice.
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Re: could I expect Chung test/ A B runs could tease out differences between two 'good' aerobars? [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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Assuming you can get the same position on both bars is a bit of a stretch. There will be subtle differences. Same differences at the front of the bike can change drag quite a bit. I think it was the WattShop guys who found 8 watt by moving the hands about 1cm farther apart. A pretty big gain and a counter intuitive result. I would have thought that closer hands would be faster.
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Re: could I expect Chung test/ A B runs could tease out differences between two 'good' aerobars? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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I Chung like a mofo and with consistency and experience I can tease out 10g of drag.
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Re: could I expect Chung test/ A B runs could tease out differences between two 'good' aerobars? [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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Back when I was doing this sheet with a spreadsheet I felt I was good enough to tease out about 15g or so. It definitely took a few days to get to that point. And the right course. And no wind
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Re: could I expect Chung test/ A B runs could tease out differences between two 'good' aerobars? [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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Wow ... this yielded pretty much every respondent I could have hoped for. Thanks guys.
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Re: could I expect Chung test/ A B runs could tease out differences between two 'good' aerobars? [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
Yeah, one can test with that level of accuracy, but you have to really get your technique down, plus have a good power meter, plus have a little bit of luck. Personally, on an outdoor course the lowest I've seen was a difference around 0.04N (~4 g) in drag force, but I was pretty lucky to get a really calm day. I'm not sure how small of a difference I would have been able to detect on that day but less than that.

I wouldn't expect that anyone could tease out that small of a difference without some practice.

On "normally calm" rather than "absolutely dead calm" days I think it's more usual for me to be able to reliably detect a change closer to 0.1N (~10g, or ~0.001 m^2, or ~ 1W @ TT speed, or ~2.5kg of mass).
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Re: could I expect Chung test/ A B runs could tease out differences between two 'good' aerobars? [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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The protocol depends on detecting differences in elevation between the runs.

IMO, I have the best results on calm wind days on a loop that has a "high point". Imagine a looped gravity well. You can stay in TT the whole lap, but there's a distinct elevation change per lap.

If you hold your position and the wind is truly calm, you can do more repeats of the loop so you can see the difference in slope the two lines in the graph produces actually appears better/nicer.
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Re: could I expect Chung test/ A B runs could tease out differences between two 'good' aerobars? [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
Imagine a looped gravity well.

Cool, ain't it?

https://xkcd.com/54/
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